View Full Version : Flop Decision
8 handed 10/20
MP is loose passive
Button is decent and aggressive
Hero has 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the BB
folded to MP who limps, folded to button who raises, Hero calls, MP calls
Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero's plan and why?
Nick C
10-02-2005, 07:48 PM
I'd probably check-call.
I don't know if the pot is big enough or multiway enough for me to want to make a big investment in an effort to improve my potential pair outs.
The semi-bluff potential does make a checkraise (followed by a turn lead) tempting, though, if you think there's a good enough chance of pushing Button off of overs.
In any event, you aren't really in such bad shape against overs anyway, with two cards to come.
Edit: I don't know the 10/20 at all, so I don't know how much folding equity you may or may not have here.
W. Deranged
10-02-2005, 08:00 PM
Q-T...
I kind of like a donkish line here, particularly if you improve the turn...
I think that check-raising here or raising the flop is not particularly helpful, as your opponent is likely to raise your flop bets pretty light and is rarely raising given the pot is decent and many people don't like giving up on the their steals easily. The flop likely did miss your opponent, and you have plenty of potential here, so I think the way to try to win this hand (since we're proceeding to the turn anyway), is a kind of "inverted float." Basically, check-call the flop and bet the turn, though probably check-fold an A and maybe a K turn. The idea is that if the flop missed your opponent, he is going to have a much harder time fighting off a turn bet than a flop bet, and by avoiding betting or check-raising the flop you avoid getting raised and having to invest to much. You don't buy much fold equity in this pot as it is on the flop, since it looks so likely to have missed everyone and your opponents will peel liberally. Check-calling and then acting as if the turn improved you seems the way to go.
Who knows... just a thought. Personally, I'm often just folding this pre-flop. The key to play on the later streets seems to me to be trying to gain a bit of fold equity with the least investment, and check-call/donk seems to do that.
The obvious criticism is going to be that betting the turn sucks if you might get raised and have to peel since you have sufficient odds. True, but I think this risk is more than made up for by the fold equity we gain on the turn.
private joker
10-02-2005, 08:07 PM
I play too tight from the blinds, and I hate being out of position, so that's why I fold preflop. I'm sure calling is correct here, but can someone explain the top 3 reasons why, to help me out? Maybe a pokerstove analysis with reasonable hand ranges for the two opponents? My gut tells me 9-high doesn't fare well, and its suitedness doesn't add enough value 3-handed. But I'm open-minded...
brettbrettr
10-02-2005, 08:10 PM
I play this often out of the blinds. I'd def play it in a steal spot even HU, to try and discourage stealing, I'd prob only much it if it was folded to me after a solid EP raise. But, 3-handed, the suitedness adds value, and I think the live-ness of my cards is a big factor.
[ QUOTE ]
I play too tight from the blinds, and I hate being out of position, so that's why I fold preflop. I'm sure calling is correct here, but can someone explain the top 3 reasons why, to help me out? Maybe a pokerstove analysis with reasonable hand ranges for the two opponents? My gut tells me 9-high doesn't fare well, and its suitedness doesn't add enough value 3-handed. But I'm open-minded...
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Please add your flop comments also...
[ QUOTE ]
I play this often out of the blinds. I'd def play it in a steal spot even HU, to try and discourage stealing, I'd prob only much it if it was folded to me after a solid EP raise. But, 3-handed, the suitedness adds value, and I think the live-ness of my cards is a big factor.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thoughts on the flop please Brett.
brettbrettr
10-02-2005, 08:23 PM
If I'm playing I like a check-call bet. His flop betb is automatic. His turn call is not. The check-call-bet line is something I've been screwing around with a lot these days. It seems to confuse the [censored] out of people. It does when they do it to me so [censored] them I do it to them.
brettbrettr
10-02-2005, 08:23 PM
Also, if he's the type to check behind on the turn and you pick up a draw then checking the turn is totally valid too.
[ QUOTE ]
Q-T...
I kind of like a donkish line here, particularly if you improve the turn...
I think that check-raising here or raising the flop is not particularly helpful, as your opponent is likely to raise your flop bets pretty light and is rarely raising given the pot is decent and many people don't like giving up on the their steals easily. The flop likely did miss your opponent, and you have plenty of potential here, so I think the way to try to win this hand (since we're proceeding to the turn anyway), is a kind of "inverted float." Basically, check-call the flop and bet the turn, though probably check-fold an A and maybe a K turn. The idea is that if the flop missed your opponent, he is going to have a much harder time fighting off a turn bet than a flop bet, and by avoiding betting or check-raising the flop you avoid getting raised and having to invest to much. You don't buy much fold equity in this pot as it is on the flop, since it looks so likely to have missed everyone and your opponents will peel liberally. Check-calling and then acting as if the turn improved you seems the way to go.
Who knows... just a thought. Personally, I'm often just folding this pre-flop. The key to play on the later streets seems to me to be trying to gain a bit of fold equity with the least investment, and check-call/donk seems to do that.
The obvious criticism is going to be that betting the turn sucks if you might get raised and have to peel since you have sufficient odds. True, but I think this risk is more than made up for by the fold equity we gain on the turn.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good thoughts; however, it doesn't seem that you're considering MP here and how his play effects you or villain.
Entity
10-02-2005, 10:27 PM
I checkraise.
Jake (The Snake)
10-02-2005, 10:55 PM
Preflop:
I think this is fine given the odds and the fact that button could be isolating with a very wide range here.
Postflop:
I don't really agree with the turn donking idea, though it's not a play I've given a ton of thought to previously. MP is stuck between the guy we would be making the play at and will likely call the donk. This would make it more likely button calls behind as well.
I usually just play these ones passively, but I think a flop c/r could be good to knock out MP as well as increase our folding equity against button. The c/r would also help identify buttons hand as a pp > 9 or not.
Carmine
10-02-2005, 11:02 PM
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I checkraise.
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I agree, but only against a weak button. It's too easy a play to see through IMO if button is any good.
Piiop
10-02-2005, 11:19 PM
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I checkraise.
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If it becomes headsup with you and the button, do you bet turn and river ui?
Octopus
10-02-2005, 11:41 PM
The problem I have with c/r-ing here is that it fairly screams "I have no better than top pair ande probably worse" and if button thinks both his overs are good, he will not fold before the river (and may bluff us with the best hand to get us to lay down a small pair). Firing 3 times with this hand is not something I want to do.
c/c, bet has the advantage of both confusing the button and putting MP in a tough spot. Plus, every card (except an eight) believably improves our hand to better than one pair; if he is on overs (and doesn't pair the turn) he may fear he is drawing dead. The downside is that, unless we pick up a flush draw or a pair, we would probably have to fold to a raise. On the other hand, checking here would almost certianly elicit another bet, so that is the same as surrendering. (Read dependent, of course.)
So, with those thoughts in mind: I check call the flop (folding to two bets). If MP is still in there, a turn semi-bluff is not sufficiently likely to succeed, so I check/fold (unimproved), check/call (with a flush draw), or check/raise (with a straight; not sure about that bit). If MP folds the flop, I bet out on any card and fold to a raise (without a flush raw or made hand) or play appropriately with those things.
What do you think?
W. Deranged
10-03-2005, 05:01 AM
You're right... the turn donk line really works best heads-up. I like it plenty if MP in fact folds here. Check-raising may be best in that it squeezes out the intermediate player and allows you to make a heads-up power play against the button on the turn. My thought is that the donk may fold to the turn bet too, though it is clear that if we're "parlaying" a fold for both MP and button, it'll be much tougher to steal this pot.
So I think I like the donk line if it gets heads-up and probably just a check-call, check-fold (without improvement) on the turn if it remains three-handed. It's tough, because I think that the ideal is buying the pot with minimum investment, and the flop check-raise (which is required to get the hand heads-up, and may not always achieve that) is a bit too expensive for such a goal, in my opinion.
jskills
10-03-2005, 09:33 AM
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I checkraise.
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If it becomes headsup with you and the button, do you bet turn and river ui?
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Good question - I was going to ask if you C/R the flop, is the turn bet automatic?
Well, there's no way that the flop check-raise is for value. So, why are we doing it? To steal the pot plus some deception when we make our hand. The turn bet, if not automatic, is very close to automatic. Maybe if an ace or king falls, you chill out, but I'm not sure even then.
Entity
10-03-2005, 03:14 PM
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I checkraise.
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If it becomes headsup with you and the button, do you bet turn and river ui?
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Turn, yes. River, it's dependent upon the card but I'll often give up if it looks like he's making a FOS-calldown.
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