Opinions needed on enlisting after college

[SoCalRugger]

Alright, time to turn to OOT for guidance, since I really have no idea how to look at this.

I'm 23. I'm a grad student working on my masters degree in mechanical engineering, this will be my last year. I'll get it in June 2006.

I'm thinking about enlisting in the Army after I'm done. It would be with either an Airborne contract or a Ranger contract, depending on what kind of PT scores I'm putting up by then (although I've got 9 months, so there's no reason why I shouldn't be maxing the scores by then). Either way, it would be Infantry and would have absolutely nothing to do with my degree.

So here's the question. Assume I don't re-enlist and only stay for 4 years. When I get out, I'll be 28 with a masters degree, but no relevant job experience for the past four years. How are companies (I'm thinking Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, other defense industry companies) going to view this when I look for a job? I guess one way would be that I've got the technical knowledge with the masters degree, and for the past 4 years I've gained leadership, a solid work ethic, and other qualities along those lines. Another way would be that I'm 28 and haven't done anything engineering related in 4 years, so obviously I've forgotten everything and they'll just go with a recent college grad.

Anybody have any ideas on how that might play out? I'm just trying to figure out if I'll be throwing away six years of school if I decide to enlist.

[jakethebake]

Why would you enlist? Why not go officer?

[edfurlong]

Why not be an engineer in the military?

[Jimbo]

I can think of nothing better on your resume than how many raghead terrorists you have offed in the past four years.

On a more serious note: Many defense contractors have quotas in their military related contracts to provide a certain percentage of employees that have military experience.

[TheBlueMonster]

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I'm just trying to figure out if I'll be throwing away six years of school if I decide to enlist

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also would you be throwing away your life if you decide to enlist in the infantry?....
Do you really wanna throw yourself right into the front lines? (though it's hard to figure out what consitutes the front lines in this conflict....)

[SoCalRugger]

There's no guarantee as an officer that you'll make it to the 75th. You have to branch infantry as a 2LT, put in your time in another infantry position, and then when you're a 1LT, maybe you'll get a shot at the Rangers (that's a big maybe).

By enlisting, I can go in with an Opt. 40 contract, which guarantees me a shot at the Rangers. As long as I don't screw up and successfully complete Airborne and RIP, I'm guaranteed a slot in the regiment.

If I'm only planning on serving for a short time (4-6 years) and I want to be a Ranger, enlisted is the way to do it.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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Why would you enlist? Why not go officer?

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You have a degree. Try go get an OCS contract. In fact, demand one. I'm a company commander and have sent half a dozen Soldiers of mine with degrees to OCS. There is not a better time in the the Army's history to get commissioned.

Plus officer pay is much, much better.

[jakethebake]

Rangers is a big maybe whatever way you go. One of the baddest guys I know (a seriously badass Recon Marine who got out, did a tour in the desert as a civilian contractor and is now training both Rangers and Seals as a civilian) got injured a week into Ranger school, lost his spot and that was it. He never got to go back. My point is that if becoming a Ranger is the only reason you're joining, you might be setting yourself up for a long disappointing hitch.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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Rangers is a big maybe whatever way you go. One of the baddest guys I know (a seriously badass Recon Marine who got out, did a tour in the desert as a civilian contractor and is now training both Rangers and Seals as a civilian) got injured a week into Ranger school, lost his spot and that was it. He never got to go back. My point is that if becoming a Ranger is the only reason you're joining, you might be setting yourself up for a long disappointing hitch.

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This is a fair statement.

[SoCalRugger]

I know it's not a guarantee. All it would take is one wrong landing in Airborne school to mess everything up. If I don't make it, then I'm sent world-wide to wherever the Army decides. I recognize that, and it would not keep me from trying. I'd rather give it a shot and not make it (and live with the consequences), than not even try just because it might backfire on me.

I wouldn't think about being an officer just for the better pay. If money was my primary concern, I wouldn't be considering this in the first place. I'd just go straight to work at 65-70K/year.

Basically, I feel that I should serve. To get the most out of the experience, it would mean enlisting with an Airborne/Opt. 40 contract. If that's set in stone, is it going to cost me a decent job when I get out?

The quotas Jimbo mentioned are interesting. I've got friends at both Northrop and Raytheon - I might have to ask them about that.

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Why would you enlist? Why not go officer?

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You have a degree. Try go get an OCS contract. In fact, demand one. I'm a company commander and have sent half a dozen Soldiers of mine with degrees to OCS. There is not a better time in the the Army's history to get commissioned.

Plus officer pay is much, much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to be lazy and never do any real work, then yea, get commissioned. The pay differences between enlisted and officers is the biggest internal problem the military has.

[TTChamp]

I am an officer in the Navy, but I have seen several people in a similar situation as yours and they have regreted their decision. Here are my thoughts. I highly recomend you PM me to discuss this further.

1. There is a lot of romance associated with highly trained and bad ass groups like the rangers, but when you get down to it there is also a ton of work and crappy assignments. I'm not trying to put down these groups in any way (I would never mess with them), I am just saying that it is not a romantic as you think it is right now.

2. Based on your education you are obviously a smart guy. When you enlist you will be treated like an irresponsible dumb ass a lot of the time. Worse you will be surrounded by some people who really are irresponsible dumb asses.

3. There are a lot of ways to serve the country where your skill set will be better utilized. In the long run, this will be better for you and for the US.

[guller]

From my personal experiences, fresh college engineering graduates do not know anything about real "hands on" engineering anyway so...

Engineering degree + military training, in just discipline alone = easy hire over fresh college grad.

[RacersEdge]

I don't really like your plan. I think a newly minted grad student has a certain flare in the market. If nothing else, you won't be totally up to date in a technical field after 4 years. I think that would be a bigger negative than the army leadership would be a plus - which it would be.

Why do you even want to join the army at all?

Plus, defense contractors are very dicey with their revenue depending on governemnt actions. Why tie your future completely to them?

[MrTrik]

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From my personal experiences, fresh college engineering graduates do not know anything about real "hands on" engineering anyway so...

Engineering degree + military training, in just discipline alone = easy hire over fresh college grad.

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I agree with this. You will be in the same general job description and pay level as a fresh college grad but you'll probably be at the higher end of both.

The 4-6 years without experience is not a problem because you can explain it with documentation. But don't expect to be looked at as much more than a new college grad. Some companies will pay a slight premium in this case because of the non-field related things the military taught you. Disclipine, organazation, that kind of stuff.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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Why would you enlist? Why not go officer?

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You have a degree. Try go get an OCS contract. In fact, demand one. I'm a company commander and have sent half a dozen Soldiers of mine with degrees to OCS. There is not a better time in the the Army's history to get commissioned.

Plus officer pay is much, much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to be lazy and never do any real work, then yea, get commissioned. The pay differences between enlisted and officers is the biggest internal problem the military has.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ignorance of your post astounds me. Feel free to argue at length about who works hardest in the military (I know me AND my NCOs are prone to put in long hours)

However, the difference in pay is because of the different levels of RESPONSIBILITY between officers and enlisted. Read AR 600-20...as a commander I'm responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen in my unit. You probably won't understand this until you've led a platoon in combat or commanded a company. Accordingly, I'll give your ill informed statement a pass.

[ToGreyStreet]

this may seem naive, but wouldn't it make more sense for the military to assign someone who wants to enlist in the army into the field that would best use his skills. If someone comes out of medical school for example and wants to be a front line soldier, that would be a extreme misuse of their training and skills. If someone came out of college with a masters degree in engineering and really wanted to serve their country, they should do what would best utilize their skills...being an engineer for the military

-Joe

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Feel free to argue at length about who works hardest in the military (I know me AND my NCOs are prone to put in long hours)


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This is ignorant. Everyone in the military puts in long hours, but there's a huge difference between sitting in your office and working in a motorpool for 15 hours with one 30 minute break.

Of course I understand that officers have more responsibility and they should get payed more, but when a shithead 2nd lt. takes home as much as 1sg, something's jacked up.

I'm sure I'm wasting my time, most officers I met in the Army were condescending pricks that were NEVER wrong either. I could tell a 1000 stories about stupid things my commanders and platoon leaders did. O3 sleeping with E4, 1lt destroying 4 $20,000 circuit cards, O3 in Korea drinking and driving almost killing 3 people, O2 in Iraq shooting himself in the leg........on and on...... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

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but wouldn't it make more sense for the military

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STOP! Almost nothing the military does makes sense.

[MonkeeMan]

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All it would take is one wrong landing in Airborne school to mess everything up.

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No worries then. I saw a guy jump well after me in the stick and land way before me due to a couple of streamers, and he walked away from it after he came to. (He did walk right out of jump school too though /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

But as a draftee the only way I kept my sanity was knowing I didn't join that sorry [censored].

So I vote no.

[BradleyT]

If you feel obligated to your country get a job with a company helping to rebuild the gulf coast areas.

You'll have a better time than being in the military.

[sfer]

A very good friend of mine did this out of undergrad. It sounds very similar to you in that he turned down multiple offers to whatever the officer track is and demanded to be put into infantry, and served 4 years in the 101st. Tried out for SF and all that.

Anyway, he did nothing for about a year out of the Army, worked briefly at a defense contractor consulting shop, and is now in the Foreign Service. By his own admission he ended up prepared for nothing except blowing up bridges and following orders.

It takes balls to enlist in the Infantry, good for you.

I maxed the ASVAB and had a GT score of 130 and I enlisted in the Infantry at age 30 because it was something I had always wanted to do. Make sure you can pass the Army's Combat Water Survival Test before you go to RIP. I couldn't swim well and failing this test got me bounced out of RIP. Luckily I got sent to the 82nd Airborne Division.

There will be many times you find yourself hating all the Army b*llsh*t as a more mature and intelligent enlisted man, just know you will have to put up with this crap before you enlist.

If you enlist first and then decide you want to be an officer you can always put in an OCS packet while you're serving. Also if you get assigned to the 75th or serve as an RTO you will get a security clearance which may help you get a job when you get out.

If this is what you really want then do it. Officers may command troops but NCO's lead.

[d10]

Putting in 15 hours at the motor pool is not something that happens every day. I was a Black Hawk crew chief for 3 years and put in my share of 18+ hour days and 12+ hour days on the weekend that I thought I would be off for, but I never pretended to work more than the platoon leaders or commanders of my unit. The good ones practically live at the office. The pay difference between enlisted and commissioned officers is perfectly fair.

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Putting in 15 hours at the motor pool is not something that happens every day. I was a Black Hawk crew chief for 3 years and put in my share of 18+ hour days and 12+ hour days on the weekend that I thought I would be off for, but I never pretended to work more than the platoon leaders or commanders of my unit. The good ones practically live at the office. The pay difference between enlisted and commissioned officers is perfectly fair.

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BS, the soldiers do the work, [censored] doesnt get done without them. Officers rarely have 24 hr duties, they have lower pt scores, they fire their weapons once a year, and do ZERO physical labor.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

Why in the name of God would you enlist? I'd be surprised if they even let you these days. Get a commission. Trust me, you'll never regret it. Being a commissioned officer in the military, any service, is a very valuable experience. If you enlist, and I hesitate to say this, you will have a completely different experience...I'll let you figure that out yourself.

-JOTR

[JihadOnTheRiver]

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Plus officer pay is much, much better.

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Very important point. Despite what some people think, at the age of about 25-27, you'll be making significantly more cheese than your civilian friends.

[BottlesOf]

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By his own admission he ended up prepared for nothing except blowing up bridges...

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Yea, but this is still a pretty cool skill to have.

[JDErickson]

I spent 11 years in the military. 13B instead of 11B though. We got to drive to work. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m5.jpg

I personally think that it is a very valuable experience for anyone. Yes you put up with all the bullshit but you also learn discipline and teamwork. Probably 2 of the most essential skills in todays world.

[d10]

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BS, the soldiers do the work, [censored] doesnt get done without them. Officers rarely have 24 hr duties, they have lower pt scores, they fire their weapons once a year, and do ZERO physical labor.

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I don't see what this has to do with pay. There are aspects of a job beyond physical work which require compensation.

[MonkeeMan]

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Luckily I got sent to the 82nd Airborne Division.


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Never forget when I was going to my assignment with the 82nd. This was back in '69, I'm cruisin' down I95, cross into North Carolina and the first thing I see is a big billboard announcing "Welcome to Klan Country". In '69!

Anyway, I was with the 173rd too, Airborne Infantry 11F4P, and jump school was the best part of my service.

And I still say don't do it.

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BS, the soldiers do the work, [censored] doesnt get done without them. Officers rarely have 24 hr duties, they have lower pt scores, they fire their weapons once a year, and do ZERO physical labor.

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I don't see what this has to do with pay. There are aspects of a job beyond physical work which require compensation.

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An E9 with 20 years time in service has a base salary of $4575 a month. An O3 with 6 years makes $4367. Now please tell me that a BDE CSM does less work than a battery commander and this pay is fair.

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Luckily I got sent to the 82nd Airborne Division.


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Never forget when I was going to my assignment with the 82nd. This was back in '69, I'm cruisin' down I95, cross into North Carolina and the first thing I see is a big billboard announcing "Welcome to Klan Country". In '69!

Anyway, I was with the 173rd too, Airborne Infantry 11F4P, and jump school was the best part of my service.

And I still say don't do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I'm no fan of Fayetteville, NC either, I left as soon as possible. Being a paratrooper was important to me. I'm glad I enlisted, and I'm also glad I didn't re-enlist.

[d10]

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An E9 with 20 years time in service has a base salary of $4575 a month. An O3 with 6 years makes $4367. Now please tell me that a BDE CSM does less work than a battery commander and this pay is fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know the details about either one of those jobs, all I know is that commissioned officer pay wasn't enough for me to even think about going that route. If my only options were stay enlisted or take a commission, I would still be an E-4 right now.

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An E9 with 20 years time in service has a base salary of $4575 a month. An O3 with 6 years makes $4367. Now please tell me that a BDE CSM does less work than a battery commander and this pay is fair.

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I don't know the details about either one of those jobs, all I know is that commissioned officer pay wasn't enough for me to even think about going that route. If my only options were stay enlisted or take a commission, I would still be an E-4 right now.

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Brigade ~ 1800-2000 soldiers
Battery ~ 90-120 soldiers

It's just BS that a soldier dedicates his whole life to the Army, achieves a high rank and some shithead with a college degree makes more money doing less work.

[d10]

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Brigade ~ 1800-2000 soldiers
Battery ~ 90-120 soldiers

It's just BS that a soldier dedicates his whole life to the Army, achieves a high rank and some shithead with a college degree makes more money doing less work.

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I know the numbers, but you can't use that as an indication of how much work someone does. Very few of those 1800-2000 soldiers have any contact with their brigade CSM. I promise you that none of my brigade CSMs ever spent 1 minute of their time thinking about me, and I'd be surprised if they even knew my name. I doubt they spend much time working with anyone outside of their battalion CSMs, the CSM above them, and their staff. You still don't have me convinced that they work harder or have more personal responsibilities above the lowest level commanders.

What does personal contact have to do with anything? How often does the store manager at McDonalds interact with the fry cook? Ummm never. A BDE CSM has a 1000 more responsibilties than a battery commander, if you cant see that then you just go blindly along.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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An E9 with 20 years time in service has a base salary of $4575 a month. An O3 with 6 years makes $4367. Now please tell me that a BDE CSM does less work than a battery commander and this pay is fair.

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I don't know the details about either one of those jobs, all I know is that commissioned officer pay wasn't enough for me to even think about going that route. If my only options were stay enlisted or take a commission, I would still be an E-4 right now.

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Brigade ~ 1800-2000 soldiers
Battery ~ 90-120 soldiers

It's just BS that a soldier dedicates his whole life to the Army, achieves a high rank and some shithead with a college degree makes more money doing less work.

[/ QUOTE ]

A CSM role is primarily ADVISORY in nature. He gives his thoughts/opinions to the Commander (especially concerning enlisted issues).

A Commander COMMANDS and is the one ultimately responsible for what the health, morale, training, welfare of his men and the care and maintenance of his property.

Pointing out random dipsh*t officers you've worked with doesn't strengthen your argument in the least. A couple guys negligent in their duties and not honoring their commissioning oath does not translate to that responsibility not being there to begin with.

If you're still not understanding this, I'll try another analogy: A CEO must make more money than an assembly line worker. Do you see why?

[KaneKungFu123]

you want to be a ranger that means you want to kill some ragheads right?

i admire your courage, hopefully itll be what you think its going to be.

[BoogerFace]

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From my personal experiences, fresh college engineering graduates do not know anything about real "hands on" engineering anyway so...

Engineering degree + military training, in just discipline alone = easy hire over fresh college grad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. After a four year enlistment, the OP would have forgotten most of what he learned in college.

The same thing happens to women in technical disciplines who take a couple of years off to have kids. When they try to reenter the workforce, they find their skills are several years out of date.

What do you do for a living? Do you actually hire people out of engineering school? Ever gone to a college campus to do recruiting?

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An E9 with 20 years time in service has a base salary of $4575 a month. An O3 with 6 years makes $4367. Now please tell me that a BDE CSM does less work than a battery commander and this pay is fair

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If you're still not understanding this, I'll try another analogy: A CEO must make more money than an assembly line worker. Do you see why?


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Lame analogy. A CEO has >20 years experience compared to a high school dropout lineworker. A penis with a degree cant just walk into a company and say "HEY! I'd like to be the CEO and make more money than people that have deicated their entire lives to this company". Your logic is severly flawed, do you see why?

[Voltron87]

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An E9 with 20 years time in service has a base salary of $4575 a month. An O3 with 6 years makes $4367. Now please tell me that a BDE CSM does less work than a battery commander and this pay is fair

[/ QUOTE ]


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If you're still not understanding this, I'll try another analogy: A CEO must make more money than an assembly line worker. Do you see why?


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Lame analogy. A CEO has >20 years experience compared to a high school dropout lineworker. A penis with a degree cant just walk into a company and say "HEY! I'd like to be the CEO and make more money than people that have deicated their entire lives to this company". Your logic is severly flawed, do you see why?

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So why dont the E9's become 03's, if the pay is so out of whack?

[Pyromaniac]

sounds like a mistake to me. but also sounds like you're stuck on the idea.

As a general rule, the more education you have as an enlisted person, the more miserable you will be.

Once you enlist, you'll have a lot less control over your destiny in the military than you think. At least going in as an officer you are bringing your education to the table. Enlisted, they don't care that you've got an education...in fact, it's likely to work against you.

*shrug* my 2p

[Pyromaniac]

Not a perfect analogy, but enlisted = blue collar, officer = white collar.

So the E9 doesn't become an O3 for the same reason the guy who runs the paint line at Chevy doesn't become the plant manager. He's got a lot of years of experience, but not the right kind of experience. He has little/no education. He has a family and a life and obligations and a comfortable place in the world. Deciding to go OCS is like starting all over again...it'd be like quitting the job and going back to college and getting the business degree. And having to compete with all the young guns.

...as to the original analogy, or criticism of it: Nobody with a college degree just walks in and becomes a CEO...obviously. But the penis-with-a-degree has got a shot at it, someday, many years of work from now. Whereas the line worker doesn't. And never will.

Whether you think that's "right" or "fair" or "just" doesn't change the way it is.

[Voltron87]

Just a note, I don't know crap about the military, unlike many people in this thread who have actually served. So I might screw up names/what people do.



Your post makes sense. The thing I was getting at was, well there has to be a reason that enlisted guys don't become officers, since the officers with 3 years of experience earn what enlisted men with 15 earn. And for better or for worst, it looks like there is. The guys who become officers have training that enlisted guys don't, and in this capitalistic society people with skills that not many other people have earn more than other guys who do something thousands could do. Even if the guys who do something everyone else can do work really hard.


Also, if someone in the military has a real problem with that, it's a little weird that they're serving to protect a country where that hierarchy is deeply engrained. It happens in every facet of business/the workplace in this society, not just the military. Considering the how the military is a "shut up and do what youre told. now." kind of place, that philosophy is not really condusive to serving.

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The thing I was getting at was, well there has to be a reason that enlisted guys don't become officers

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It's rather difficult for an enlisted person without a degree to become an officer. The Army needs more higher ranked enlisted personel than they need another rinky dink 2LT. I guess you would have to serve to understand, but when you see your dumbass platoon leader never have a scuff on his boot because he spends all day in the ac and then drives home in his Lexus you kinda want punch someone in the face.

[Voltron87]

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The thing I was getting at was, well there has to be a reason that enlisted guys don't become officers

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It's rather difficult for an enlisted person without a degree to become an officer. The Army needs more higher ranked enlisted personel than they need another rinky dink 2LT. I guess you would have to serve to understand, but when you see your dumbass platoon leader never have a scuff on his boot because he spends all day in the ac and then drives home in his Lexus you kinda want punch someone in the face.

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reread my last post.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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The thing I was getting at was, well there has to be a reason that enlisted guys don't become officers

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It's rather difficult for an enlisted person without a degree to become an officer. The Army needs more higher ranked enlisted personel than they need another rinky dink 2LT. I guess you would have to serve to understand, but when you see your dumbass platoon leader never have a scuff on his boot because he spends all day in the ac and then drives home in his Lexus you kinda want punch someone in the face.

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From the wording of your post, I can conclude one of two things:

1) Your platoon leader(s) did not take their jobs seriously and did not give you the coaching/teaching/mentoring and general leadership that you deserved. Most PLs do. In each of my platoons, I was on the ground pulling maintenance/changing track etc w/the Soldiers-this is frankly the best part of being an LT and it's unfortunate that a select few of my peers wouldn't realize that.

2) You were a marginal Soldier, with a generally bitter attitude about his service, who never internalized things like the Army Values or the NCO Creed. Most professional and mature NCOs (and even senior E4s) understand deeply the nuances that separate them from the Officer Corps, (including pay/levels of responsibility). In fact, when I'd approach a good junior NCO about the possibility of a commission, with those who decline the answer is almost univerally "I don't want that responsibility" All of these NCOs I've served with seem to get it--why don't you?