Stars 500k QQ hand.. ummm

[raptor517]

PokerStars Game #2711310913: Tournament #12671146, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/10/02 - 16:36:30 (ET)
Table '12671146 127' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: doubleace13 (2380 in chips)
Seat 2: OCANOBEER (2820 in chips)
Seat 3: Bebop86 (2500 in chips)
Seat 4: ITG7 (2240 in chips)
Seat 5: SPQR007 (2340 in chips)
Seat 6: LTP124 (2450 in chips)
Seat 7: mr. lee1 (2460 in chips)
Seat 8: nino31 (2410 in chips)
Seat 9: Nicodemus75 (2820 in chips)
Nicodemus75: posts small blind 10
doubleace13: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bebop86 [Qh Qd]
OCANOBEER: calls 20
Bebop86: raises 70 to 90
ITG7: raises 130 to 220
SPQR007: folds
LTP124: folds
mr. lee1: folds
nino31: folds
Nicodemus75: folds
doubleace13: folds
OCANOBEER: folds
Bebop86: calls 130
*** FLOP *** [Jh Th 5c]
Bebop86: checks
ITG7: bets 280
Bebop86: calls 280
*** TURN *** [Jh Th 5c] [3c]
Bebop86: checks
ITG7: bets 120
Bebop86: calls 120
*** RIVER *** [Jh Th 5c 3c] [Ad]
Bebop86: bets 500

i pretty much detest how i played this hand. i was very very confused about what to do, and i almost just mucked on the flop. every hand i was ahead of that rr pf just beat me, and AK isnt looking awful either. god. ok so whats a better line? i havent been this tricked out about a hand in a LONG time. holla

[Apathy]

I lead the turn when the blank hits, I think it's pretty hard for anyone to raise you there unless they beat KK at least.

When the ace hits on the river I think you should probably be checking and calling for value, especially since his small turn bet makes a big river bet appear unlikely for him since you have shown such weakness in the hand.

[benneh]

I don't like the river bet with how you played the hand on prior streets. you played scared of an overpair of maybe JJJ. the A on the end isnt scaring any hands you put him on, except KK, who is going to call this anyway

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the river bet with how you played the hand on prior streets. you played scared of an overpair of maybe JJJ. the A on the end isnt scaring any hands you put him on, except KK, who is going to call this anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

lol yea i know all this. im asking about a better line thanks. holla

[AtticusFinch]

I'd either lead or CR that flop with all those draws out there. You'll get a lot more information that way.

[Pat Southern]

[ QUOTE ]
I lead the turn when the blank hits, I think it's pretty hard for anyone to raise you there unless they beat KK at least.

When the ace hits on the river I think you should probably be checking and calling for value, especially since his small turn bet makes a big river bet appear unlikely for him since you have shown such weakness in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like leading the turn and folding to a raise, however I dont understand why you would check call the river, just about every preflop reraising hand has you beat by now, I dont think he's betting the river with 99 or any other hand you beat.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I lead the turn when the blank hits, I think it's pretty hard for anyone to raise you there unless they beat KK at least.

When the ace hits on the river I think you should probably be checking and calling for value, especially since his small turn bet makes a big river bet appear unlikely for him since you have shown such weakness in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like leading the turn and folding to a raise, however I dont understand why you would check call the river, just about every preflop reraising hand has you beat by now, I dont think he's betting the river with 99 or any other hand you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I mean if he's going to bet 150 or 200 again like he did on the turn I would pay that off with the amount of weird donk plays i see early in these tournies

[play2win]

At least you realized that you played the hand wrong. It is a tricky hand.

Why bet the river? My guess is that I am beat now. Did you bet out of frustration? If your intution tells you that you are beat why not just give it up? Move on to the next hand, there will be lots more to come.

You need to get info on the flop here. You have an over pair, but it is vulnerable. I would go for a check raise here. If he flat calls on it than I would assume that he has a suited AK/ AQ and is going for the flush or over card. If you get re-raised than you can fold with ease. You can't passively play what you think is the winner and call him down hoping he doesn't bet too much. And more important let that ace come out for free! At least take away his pot odds and force him to make the mistake of calling you. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[raptor517]

yea believe it or not im actually not an awful player. who woulda thought. it was a very tricky hand that could have a lot of potential plays. i didnt wanna get it in on the flop at all, as just about anything getting it in there is crushing me. i wanted to keep it slow, and not lose too many chips on the hand.

as for betting the river? i duno i didnt wanna check fold, but i could have i guess.. why i bet? sheesh i duno i guess im a donk. funny little outcome was that i bet 500 on the end, he called, and i won the pot. he had 77. yea, whatever. holla

[TheJackal]

River bet is the only part of the hand I don't like, unlucky ace got there, if he was bluffing with AK or if he has AJ, he is going to call you everytime in that spot. If he held KK, he probably still makes a crying call. You can only hope he has KJ/QJ or smaller pair, which looks unlikely to me. You could have raised the turn, but why not allow him to bluff off some more chips if he doesn't already have you beat.

[johnnybeef]

I think by leading the flop you would know exactly where you stand. A bet of 275 or so looks about good.

[mrh86]

It looks like he has AJ-AK. You should've either bet the flop or check-raised instead of checking and calling. Your queens are extremely vulnerable if you aren't already beaten. His flop bet just looks like a standard AK continuation bet to me.

[AlphaWice]

[ QUOTE ]
as for betting the river? i duno i didnt wanna check fold, but i could have i guess.. why i bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

for value

[ QUOTE ]
funny little outcome was that i bet 500 on the end, he called, and i won the pot. he had 77. yea, whatever. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

its because you are a poker god. holla

[gobboboy]

I c/r all in on the turn personally. His bet screams weakness.

what was the player like???? was he a solid player? had he reraised anyone prior to this? standard reraising hands.... AA,KK,QQ u can discount this one prob,AK, and JJ maybe. It's early in the tournament you have 90 invested in the hand, you know your up against a good hand. Your not losing a lot of value folding here. Especially since its early in the tournament nobody is gonna mess around with shady hands like medium pairs etc... UNLESS he comes off as a maniac which it sounds like he isn't. My play would be fold pre-flop since your in no need to make a move and can pick a better spot later on. However, when the flop brings a T and a J (now even TT beats you) your only ahead of AK. So i would have folded here probably just because you won't get someone to fold KK or AA and certainly not JJ or TT and your only a 2 to 1 favorite against AK. I like the idea of leading the turn because you could prob get AK to fold and all the other hands would raise. However, I wouldn't want to commit that many chips for a situation like this and thats why I like folding pre-flop. And definitely on the flop if you do decide to call hoping to flop a set (not to flop an overpair).

[MrX]

[ QUOTE ]
what was the player like???? was he a solid player? had he reraised anyone prior to this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the time..the tourney had been going on for 6 minutes.

[EverettKings]

I would probably be checkraising the flop.

I know a lot of minraising hands are now ahead of you yadda yadda, but the turn is definitely not going to do anything but put you out of position facing another bet now knowing where you're at, and maybe even facing an A or K turn card as well. I mean there is nothing that can happen on the turn (if you check/call the flop) that gives you a better idea of how to play this hand.

I'd repop the flop to 800 ish. Whatever stupid minraise-footsy game he's playing is going to end, and he's going to start playing his cards and showing you their value.

I feel like if you lead the flop for anything reasonable he's likely to minraise you and leave you guessing again. I dont hate leading and reraising a minraise, since I really like my odds of being ahead here, but I think a checkraise, even though it defines your hand, makes him define his and keeps you out of greater trouble in this already vulnerable situation.

If you called the flop I'd be checkraising or leading the turn. I definitely hate betting the river since you're effectively blufffing. OK you ran into the one guy in 20 who's playing 77 and calling you, but I don't think that's what you were aiming for when you bet.

Weird hand, I agree. One of those times where you gotta just represent your cards. He's highly unlikely to be the type to be able to read them properly anyway.

Everett

[raptor517]

do you call a shove after making it 800 on the flop? if yes, explain why. is the argument on that to be oh yer beat he shoved fold. i duno im not sure what yall are saying. if i check raised the flop, i fully intended to fold to a shove. holla

[Morbo]

Why would you call a shove if you checkraise? Every part of the hand screams he has JJ, KK, AA or possibly TT. If he shove its an easy fold. If he calls and the turn blanks, you have a trickier decision but I still think I checkfold.

Other than that, I probably checkfold or betfold the flop. Checkfolding is not bad at all, I don't care if he had 77 this time.

[raptor517]

would anyone else in the world be crazy enough to check fold this flop? cuz it was a strong consideration. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you call a shove if you checkraise? Every part of the hand screams he has JJ, KK, AA or possibly TT. If he shove its an easy fold. If he calls and the turn blanks, you have a trickier decision but I still think I checkfold.

Other than that, I probably checkfold or betfold the flop. Checkfolding is not bad at all, I don't care if he had 77 this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol cmon man no sh1t i fold to a shove i already said that. im just making it clear as to what the other posters meant, because i can never tell what the hell some of you people are getting at. holla

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as for betting the river? i duno i didnt wanna check fold, but i could have i guess.. why i bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
for value

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope this is a joke. Alright, this idiot called with 77 but there is essentially no worse hand that is calling and essentially no better hand that is folding. I can't come up with a reason to bet the river. Especially given the guy's willingness to bet so little.

Frankly I think the OP played the hand fine except for the river bet (which as I said above I think is awful). Check-raising the flop is fine too. My only question is what to do if the guy puts out a real bet on the turn. Given the way we got to the river, I'm checking and folding to any reasonably sized bet, probably paying off anything 200 or less.

Steve

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as for betting the river? i duno i didnt wanna check fold, but i could have i guess.. why i bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
for value

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope this is a joke. Alright, this idiot called with 77 but there is essentially no worse hand that is calling and essentially no better hand that is folding. I can't come up with a reason to bet the river. Especially given the guy's willingness to bet so little.

Frankly I think the OP played the hand fine except for the river bet (which as I said above I think is awful). Check-raising the flop is fine too. My only question is what to do if the guy puts out a real bet on the turn. Given the way we got to the river, I'm checking and folding to any reasonably sized bet, probably paying off anything 200 or less.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

i chceck fold if he bets like 450+ on the turn. less than that i start cursing, and prolly end up folding. as for betting the river? do you want to check fold here? the 500 is a blocking bet. duno why but it felt right. holla

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as for betting the river? i duno i didnt wanna check fold, but i could have i guess.. why i bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
for value

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope this is a joke. Alright, this idiot called with 77 but there is essentially no worse hand that is calling and essentially no better hand that is folding. I can't come up with a reason to bet the river. Especially given the guy's willingness to bet so little.

Frankly I think the OP played the hand fine except for the river bet (which as I said above I think is awful). Check-raising the flop is fine too. My only question is what to do if the guy puts out a real bet on the turn. Given the way we got to the river, I'm checking and folding to any reasonably sized bet, probably paying off anything 200 or less.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

i chceck fold if he bets like 450+ on the turn. less than that i start cursing, and prolly end up folding. as for betting the river? do you want to check fold here? the 500 is a blocking bet. duno why but it felt right. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I don't mind the idea behind the blocking bet but I think the problem I have is it's too big. The guy has shown a willingness to make tiny bets. So either make your blocking bet smaller or check and see if he makes another small one. If he bets a reasonable amount on the river, I think you can fold very safely.

Steve

[TheJackal]

[ QUOTE ]
would anyone else in the world be crazy enough to check fold this flop? cuz it was a strong consideration. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

*COUGH WEAK TIGHT COUGH* DONT BE PHIL HELLMUTH!!!

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
would anyone else in the world be crazy enough to check fold this flop? cuz it was a strong consideration. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me. I simply don't give minraises that much credit. Anyone donkish enough to actually minraise with a monster would probably be weird enough to do it with 77 or A8s. His range is still pretty wide, so I'm still happy with my Queenies.

[ QUOTE ]
do you call a shove after making it 800 on the flop? if yes, explain why. is the argument on that to be oh yer beat he shoved fold. i duno im not sure what yall are saying. if i check raised the flop, i fully intended to fold to a shove. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea I intend to fold. Everything about the hand tells me that he will not be pushing there unless I'm beat. I don't see how he can fathom getting you off of your hand there. The point is you look like you aren't going anywhere, so he is forced to play his cards for what they're worth. Obviously there are exceptions, i.e. he's an uberdonk who thinks his KJ is still good or he has a read on you and loves to get feisty etc etc, but the vast majority of the time I think this line gets you out of this pot as smoothly as possible.

Everett

[EverettKings]

I absolutely hate the river "blocking bet". What the hell are you blocking? All better hands still call. Worse hands now don't bluff at you. Ugh.

[schwah]

[ QUOTE ]
would anyone else in the world be crazy enough to check fold this flop? cuz it was a strong consideration. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

i might but i think id prefer to bet/fold

[JustPlayingSmart]

Raptor,

If you had AJ here, a lot of posters would say check/call flop and lead the turn. Since QQ is the next hand up from AJ here, I think that line would work here as well. Typically with this line, you don't have to commit as much as you would with a check/raise on the flop, and if they raise the turn they generally have AJ (or QQ in this case) beat.

I said i would because TT,JJ,KK,AA all have you beat. How many other hands reraise?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I said i would because TT,JJ,KK,AA all have you beat. How many other hands reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

apparently a lot. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely hate the river "blocking bet". What the hell are you blocking? All better hands still call. Worse hands now don't bluff at you. Ugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

so yer content to check fold a river for less than 500? holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would anyone else in the world be crazy enough to check fold this flop? cuz it was a strong consideration. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

*COUGH WEAK TIGHT COUGH* DONT BE PHIL HELLMUTH!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. so many people are terribly wrong about phil being too weak tight. it works out rather well for him. holla

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would anyone else in the world be crazy enough to check fold this flop? cuz it was a strong consideration. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

i might but i think id prefer to bet/fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I think if you're gonna go anywhere with this hand it's a bet/fold.

It's a really weird hand because it's the third hand of the tournament or something like that and you have no clue if the guy knows how to play. I might be losing EV by treating these plays cautiously early, I just know that unless he is a total jackass (which he was) you've either lost on the flop already or are beating exactly AK.

[TheJackal]

[ QUOTE ]
lol. so many people are terribly wrong about phil being too weak tight. it works out rather well for him. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I know he isn't I'm just busting his balls a bit. But c'mon, you can't check fold here, bet if you get raised big it's an easy fold since it's early in the tournament.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol. so many people are terribly wrong about phil being too weak tight. it works out rather well for him. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I know he isn't I'm just busting his balls a bit. But c'mon, you can't check fold here, bet if you get raised big it's an easy fold since it's early in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i think you CAN.. but it may not be the best play.. but it should still be an option at least CONSIDERED. iduno, maybe not. holla

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
so yer content to check fold a river for less than 500? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'll check call. If you bet you win the pot only when your hand is best, and (save a few rare cases like this one) you dont get 500 more chips when you do, just the immediate pot. If you check/call you win when you're best plus extra chips. You still lose to better hands for (probably) the same price.

But the real critical point in this hand is the flop, not the river. I'm not loving the bet/fold (unless its a pretty strong bet) because there's just too much of a chance of him minraising you again. I mean I highly doubt the guy who "scarily" takes control of the pot with a preflop minraise has any plans of folding the flop. UNLESS you take control of the pot again and make a strong bet. A lead I just don't think accomplishes that. But a checkraise might.

Everett

[Toddy]

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars Game #2711310913: Tournament #12671146, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/10/02 - 16:36:30 (ET)
Table '12671146 127' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: doubleace13 (2380 in chips)
Seat 2: OCANOBEER (2820 in chips)
Seat 3: Bebop86 (2500 in chips)
Seat 4: ITG7 (2240 in chips)
Seat 5: SPQR007 (2340 in chips)
Seat 6: LTP124 (2450 in chips)
Seat 7: mr. lee1 (2460 in chips)
Seat 8: nino31 (2410 in chips)
Seat 9: Nicodemus75 (2820 in chips)
Nicodemus75: posts small blind 10
doubleace13: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bebop86 [Qh Qd]
OCANOBEER: calls 20
Bebop86: raises 70 to 90
ITG7: raises 130 to 220
SPQR007: folds
LTP124: folds
mr. lee1: folds
nino31: folds
Nicodemus75: folds
doubleace13: folds
OCANOBEER: folds
Bebop86: calls 130
*** FLOP *** [Jh Th 5c]
Bebop86: checks
ITG7: bets 280
Bebop86: calls 280
*** TURN *** [Jh Th 5c] [3c]
Bebop86: checks
ITG7: bets 120
Bebop86: calls 120
*** RIVER *** [Jh Th 5c 3c] [Ad]
Bebop86: bets 500

i pretty much detest how i played this hand. i was very very confused about what to do, and i almost just mucked on the flop. every hand i was ahead of that rr pf just beat me, and AK isnt looking awful either. god. ok so whats a better line? i havent been this tricked out about a hand in a LONG time. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

After the flop I'd put in a big re raise.

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
I think by leading the flop you would know exactly where you stand. A bet of 275 or so looks about good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmmmmmmm

So if someone raises, where do you stand? And if someone calls, where do you stand? I never understand posts like this.

-Jason

Check-call the flop, check-raise the turn when a blank hits to maximize the amount of chips you can extract from villain and take control of the hand. I wouldn't hate a check-raise on the flop either, but there's only 8 overcards that's scaring hero off this pot and if villain holds 1 of these then there's only 7 left in the deck that hero doesn't want to see. I prefer the line that extracts more chips but you can choose the flop C/R to avoid being pushed off the pot on the turn in case an overcard hits.

I don't think check/folding the flop is correct. There are no overcards on the board, so if you're calling the preflop reraise and folding here, what exactly are you hoping for? If you only want to play if you flop a set, then it's a bad move to call the reraise preflop in the first place. The board has some possibly dangerous draws, so a checkraise on the flop or simply a leadout bet looks like the right play to me.

[DireWolf]

as others have said, i like calling the flop and leading the turn. I don't think any worse hands will raise your turn bet, but i think a lot of the time (on the internet) most of the hands that are beating you will raise.

[Morbo]

It's not that he didn't hit a set, it's that this flop is so totally bad for him, since AA, KK, JJ and TT now leads, and AK is the one hand he beats.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not that he didn't hit a set, it's that this flop is so totally bad for him, since AA, KK, JJ and TT now leads, and AK is the one hand he beats.

[/ QUOTE ]

thankyou. some people seem to not understand this. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so yer content to check fold a river for less than 500? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'll check call. If you bet you win the pot only when your hand is best, and (save a few rare cases like this one) you dont get 500 more chips when you do, just the immediate pot. If you check/call you win when you're best plus extra chips. You still lose to better hands for (probably) the same price.

But the real critical point in this hand is the flop, not the river. I'm not loving the bet/fold (unless its a pretty strong bet) because there's just too much of a chance of him minraising you again. I mean I highly doubt the guy who "scarily" takes control of the pot with a preflop minraise has any plans of folding the flop. UNLESS you take control of the pot again and make a strong bet. A lead I just don't think accomplishes that. But a checkraise might.

Everett

[/ QUOTE ]

what if he bets 600? do you check call 600? if yes, how much do you call. i dont like this at all. holla

[raptor517]

would anyone consider after seeing his little girlie bet making it around 650-700 on the turn? thats about the only other way i see to play the hand from that standpoint. holla

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
would anyone consider after seeing his little girlie bet making it around 650-700 on the turn? thats about the only other way i see to play the hand from that standpoint. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn is EXACTLY what jumped out at me first. I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned more. That t120 screams weakness and I was shocked to see you didn't check raise him here. Especially you Raptor.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so yer content to check fold a river for less than 500? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'll check call. If you bet you win the pot only when your hand is best, and (save a few rare cases like this one) you dont get 500 more chips when you do, just the immediate pot. If you check/call you win when you're best plus extra chips. You still lose to better hands for (probably) the same price.

But the real critical point in this hand is the flop, not the river. I'm not loving the bet/fold (unless its a pretty strong bet) because there's just too much of a chance of him minraising you again. I mean I highly doubt the guy who "scarily" takes control of the pot with a preflop minraise has any plans of folding the flop. UNLESS you take control of the pot again and make a strong bet. A lead I just don't think accomplishes that. But a checkraise might.

Everett

[/ QUOTE ]

what if he bets 600? do you check call 600? if yes, how much do you call. i dont like this at all. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how much I call, but do you agree that check/calling is better than betting? I doubt that he bets much over 500 if you check to him, given how the hand's played out and how donkish he's proven himself.

Also would like to see your reaction to my flop argument. I don't know what line you like anymore.

Evertt

I think a check raise here would have been a great path to take in this hand. Your opponent just showed a lot of weakness. After what could have eaisly been a continuation bet on the flop they've made this little weak bet on the turn. This bet looks alot like AK hoping A high is good. He doens't want to check the turn because if the river blanks then you may automatically bet pushing him off his hand. This way you may check the river and he can get to a cheap showdown even if he misses.

If he comes back over the top on the turn I drop the hand though as he was probably looking to induce a bet on a trap. If he calls and then the ace hits I think you have to check as I'm not sure what you're beating any more.

[DireWolf]

[ QUOTE ]
would anyone consider after seeing his little girlie bet making it around 650-700 on the turn? thats about the only other way i see to play the hand from that standpoint. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you check-folding to a decent size bet?

I think you have to fold if he comes over the top. What hands can you beat that he comes back over the top of you with?

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol. so many people are terribly wrong about phil being too weak tight. it works out rather well for him. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I know he isn't I'm just busting his balls a bit. But c'mon, you can't check fold here, bet if you get raised big it's an easy fold since it's early in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i think you CAN.. but it may not be the best play.. but it should still be an option at least CONSIDERED. iduno, maybe not. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sitting next to raptor when this hand went down and I considered check folding the flop. I am as far from weak tight as they come and overplaying overpairs is one of my biggest leaks. That's how bad this flop looked to me.

[DireWolf]

I mean if u check the turn and he throws out a real bet.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think by leading the flop you would know exactly where you stand. A bet of 275 or so looks about good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmmmmmmm

So if someone raises, where do you stand? And if someone calls, where do you stand? I never understand posts like this.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

My play here would to proceed very cautiously against a caller, and fold to a raise as you are too frequently drawing dead. I like leading at the flop as it allows you to get away from the hand for relatively cheap when you are behind. The line that Dave took was very expensive and I think that too often he is up against a set or an overpair. Also, the times he is up against AK or AQ, he is giving away two free cards which is a huge mistake.

[2005]

After having thought about this hand, I like check raising the flop and folding to a push is the best line, followed closely by check call, lead turn. Also, having gotten to the turn the way we did, I think a check-raise is best.

[raptor517]

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After having thought about this hand, I like check raising the flop and folding to a push is the best line, followed closely by check call, lead turn. Also, having gotten to the turn the way we did, I think a check-raise is best.

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yea at this point of reflection, i like the line up to the turn. instead of a call i think a raise to around 700 is in order. if he bet 500ish on the turn.. im pretty sure i would just fold. holla

[raptor517]

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I think by leading the flop you would know exactly where you stand. A bet of 275 or so looks about good.

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Ummmmmmmmm

So if someone raises, where do you stand? And if someone calls, where do you stand? I never understand posts like this.

-Jason

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My play here would to proceed very cautiously against a caller, and fold to a raise as you are too frequently drawing dead. I like leading at the flop as it allows you to get away from the hand for relatively cheap when you are behind. The line that Dave took was very expensive and I think that too often he is up against a set or an overpair. Also, the times he is up against AK or AQ, he is giving away two free cards which is a huge mistake.

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the line i took was actually VERY inexpensive. a lot of players are willing to get stacked right there. leading at the flop is awful imo. i hate it to the utmost. where do i stand if he calls. where do i stand if he raises? u dont find anything out. rawr. holla

You have to figure his raise preflop meant AK, AA, KK, QQ(unlikely), JJ, TT there's probably not much else. The flop bet is easily a continuation bet. So if you check and he turns up the heat and puts out a real bet out on the turn you pretty much have to give him credit for a better hand or a great bet.

I think this small turn bet is a great chance to put in a good sized raise and find out if your hand is best or not.

[locutus2002]

I think you need to decide whether you are going to play the hand or not. If you are going to play the hand then you need to put villain to a decision that would commit him to the pot either BTF or ATF. Otherwise you are just waiting to have the pot taken from you.

I favor reraising to T700 BTF. I'd only expect AA,KK, and AK to continue in the hand so I'd be inclined to call a push.

ATF AA,KK,AK or the representation of them will bet this flop so I'd check raise.

If villain has the best hand then you won't get to a showdown cheap, if he doesn't you won't get to a showdown cheap either.