underfull

[kurto]

This was a tournament hand though feel free to consider it a cash hand...

7 handed
v1- $3700 (UTG)
v2- $3000
Hero- $3400

$50/$100 blinds

3 limps and hero checks in BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

FLOP ($400) 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero bets $400
V1 calls
V2 raises to $2000
Hero.... does what?

WHAT HAPPENED BELOW... Below are all three players hands... should any player play this differently?:
<font color="white"> HOW THE FLOP PLAYED OUT
Hero raises all in to $3200 (total)
V1 thinks and thinks.... and calls
V2 thinks and thinks (says, "I can't believe he smoothcalled"). Waits until someone puts a clock on him... and he folds.

V1 A 10 6 7 (note: if its not obvious, he was a beginner)
V2 2 5 6 7
Hero again... A 10 4 4

Flop 4 4 7 (rainbow) how should every player play this flop? (I'm mostly interested in what V2 should have done)

</font>

[Jorge10]

Ok when it comes to that type of hand because of the fact that the full is with low cards I would fold. The reason is that say you are up against something like 2/3/7/5 or A/3/7/10, I mean both of those hands that are very possible have you in terrible shape, you will scoop less than 20% in this spot against a hand that has a 7 and a low draw because you have no low draw. Now since this was a tourney this is even more reason to lay this down, theres 7 players left, you seem to be ok chip wise as you didnt say you were crippled or anything, why risk your stack in a spot where you are in trouble against every single hand that would raise you.

[kurto]

this is what went through my mind and why I played it... is this crazy?

First, I should say... this was a 4 game tourny (Stud Hi/lo, PL08, Razz and NLTHE) v1 doesn't play O8, v2 does and v2 knows I play omaha. This is important only for my reads.

After I led out with bottom full. the first player smoothed called, I figured he had to have a 7. When the second player raised, I had to stop and think. I knew HE knew I wouldn't have been betting without a minimum of a 7. So for him to raise me, I considered that he could have quads or a 4-7. Then, when I considered that v1 had smoothcalled my opening bet, I knew v2 couldn't have quads. Could he have 4-7? I thought the odds of him having the case 4 was very slim. So, he had to have a 7 with perhaps an Ace kicker or a 7 and a low draw. I considered he could be trying 'test' the water. Since I thought it was likely that I was ahead, I thought If I pushed, I could force v1 to fold (who would have to realize he was far behind with a raise and a reraise in front of him. I figured I might also have fold equity because they would have to put me on a boat.

does this make my play any more reasonable?

Unfortunately, the new player (v1),THOUGHT I MIGHT BE ON A STRAIGHT DRAW (he later admitted).

When v1 called...v2 thought he possibly should stay in because he had a low draw and some possible outs to a scoop. But he was so baffled and disturbed by v1s call, that he folded.

This convinced me even more that I was ahead.

IF the player who SHOULD have folded had folded, v2 WOULD have called... and I would have scooped.

What made this hand more frustrating was seeing that all of V1's cards outs were duplicated in V2 and my hand. So, I was only going up against 6 outs As the play turned out.

[lautzutao]

If villian has a 7 and a qualifying low you are behind 60-40 heads up If he doesn't have a qualifying low...well, how could he make this bet against you with just a 7...? I just fold to this bet.


As it worked out, that was the worst/perfect situation for you even if you made the wrong decision. First off V2 was a !#@$in idiot. He had to call 1000 more to win close to 5k yes? That is an AUTOMATIC call with the hand he had. And you ended up getting more than the odds you needed to play out that hand. If both had called you, you would have been a huge dog.

*Edit*
Oh yeah, your thinking is even more unreasonable if you think BOTH players had a 7 in this spot. Think about it. You have 2 players drawing against ONLY a non-nut full house, and they could both have qualifying lows to boot. If none of them have pairs in their hands, they both have 6 outs on the turn to draw out and 9 outs on the river to draw out, for a total of THIRTY outs drawing against your claim of half the pot. you are a huge underdog in this situation.

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
Could he have 4-7? I thought the odds of him having the case 4 was very slim. So, he had to have a 7 with perhaps an Ace kicker or a 7 and a low draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the fact that V1 smooth called your bet should be a huge warning sign to V2, so he cant possibly be reraising with junk, he has to have a hand because both of you have shown interest. This means that he has to have either a 7 and a low draw or the boat. The reason its a fold is because you bet the pot, a guy calls, a second guy raises, you dont know if you have the best hand, but you know one is pot commited and its very likely he has you in terrible shape if he has a low and a 7 or the made boat. You know he has one of these two hands because he raised into two people, you also have a guy who just called so that told you nothing about his hand except that he had a 7. So you have this information, one guy is strong enough to raise your bet even when a guy had called, and a second guy who called your original bet has trips and acts after you, based on this info its obvious you are in trouble and should probably fold this.

[DyessMan89]

Estimating the suits ...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1254167
pokenum -o8 as th 4s 4h - ad ts 6h 7h - 2c 5s 6c 7c -- 4c 7s 7d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing 7s 4c 7d
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 4s Th 4h 138 312 354 0 0 89 12 0.342
Ts Ad 7h 6h 45 134 471 61 177 224 12 0.286
5s 7c 6c 2c 0 159 446 61 306 189 0 0.372

And this is as friendly as its going to get for you. Given the fact that you have an EXTREMLEY vunerable hand on the turn and river, and NO low draw whatsoever, I fold this. Im not going to write an essay here, because I dont think its needed. Although this isnt the easiest fold ever, I think its one you have to make. This type of hand is going to bleed your chips away. The only way you are going to make money off this hand is if you dodge all the better full house outs from 1 or both the other players ... in which your implied odds suffer.