Why Hellmuth might be good for poker

[SNOWBALL138]

Most B&M players I talk to constantly complain about the bad beats they take and how their luck is terrible. Psychologically, this helps them to justify playing because they think that once their "bad luck" subsides, they will do well. I think that Phil Hellmuth legitimizes this viewpoint whenever he writes a bad beat article on cardplayer or berates people on tv. I'm not saying that it would be a good thing if all the name players started pulling Annie Duke tirades. I think Phil provides losing players with someone that they feel they can identify with though.

Thoughts? Would people be just as delusional if it weren't for Phil?

I remember reading some OLD Caro stuff about how Gardena players would make up all kinds of crazy bad luck stories, so its possible that losers don't need media encouragement to be delusional.

Best,
Jordan

I thought poker was 5% luck, 10% bad beats, and all the rest skill?

[purnell]

Maybe a little tangential to the topic, but I watched the Hellmuth-Ferguson match on TV yesterday, and I gotta say "What a [censored] little bitch!" In spite of his getting much (MUCH) better cards than CF got, he almost cost himself the match with his steaming and whining. Any time I feel like bitching about results, I think of Phil and remember what steaming costs.

[DyessMan89]

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I thought poker was 5% luck, 10% bad beats, and all the rest skill?

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Well, Hellmuth has been well-known in poker for 16 years now, and he doesn't seem to have held the game back any...

[Perseus]

A lot of what Phil does is an act to market himself, IMO and others opinions as well.

[Beavis68]

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A lot of what Phil does is an act to market himself, IMO and others opinions as well.

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yeah, and the earth is flat too.

[Jorge10]

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Well, Hellmuth has been well-known in poker for 16 years now, and he doesn't seem to have held the game back any...

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The fear is this, that he would become the face of poker, then everyone would believe that treating your opponents like crap is acceptable and then the fish would simply go away because who wants to get treated like crap?

I have realized that while hellmuth does do this, most people outgrow this and stop treating fish like crap at the table, at least most people that make money off poker. So I guess he is not that bad, and besides the media loves his tantrums.

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The fear is this, that he would become the face of poker

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Then those fears have already been realized/negated, depending on how you perceive his current stature. I don't see him becoming more popular than he already is, unless he manages to win the main event again.

[JohnnyHumongous]

That's kinda retarded, Hellmuth is clearly good for the game. He is an exciting figure and he has a personality that is "real" and Americans can frankly relate to. Did McEnroe ruin tennis? Did Tyson ruin boxing? Heck no, the fact that Tyson was and is still a main draw long after any skill he had vanished shows that Americans don't like boring, by-the-book heroes and entertainment.

[miami32]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif phil hellmuth.

[Jorge10]

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That's kinda retarded, Hellmuth is clearly good for the game. He is an exciting figure and he has a personality that is "real" and Americans can frankly relate to. Did McEnroe ruin tennis? Did Tyson ruin boxing?

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When was the last time you played in a major tournament with Mcenroe and did you ever fight tyson?(fighting tyson was possible I didnt keep track of the tomato cans he fought later on.)

The problem is this, poker players live off players who go there to gamble, dont you think its very hard for a person to want to comeback to play if they just got told they suck and generally treated like crap? If everyone in the casinos treated new players like hellmuth it would seriously hurt poker. Before tv people played poker in home games, but were intimidated to go play live, why do you think this is? Because they didnt want to do look stupid at the table. Thats what pros are afraid of, that every player will become like Phil since he is the face of poker and everyone will assume treating bad players like crap is acceptable. If it becomes once again difficult for new players to go to the tables then its a problem.

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Heck no, the fact that Tyson was and is still a main draw long after any skill he had vanished shows that Americans don't like boring, by-the-book heroes and entertainment.

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Well Hellmuth is popular, but hes not the only one, I mean Doyle Brunson is by the book, same with Howard Lederer and Barry Greenstein and all 3 are very popular. If you want outside poker examples look at Tiger Woods, when was the last time he told his opponents they suck and should stop playing golf? He is the most popular athlete in this country by the way regardless of how boring I find golf and have never really watched him play, but money wise he is number 1 and thats all that matters.

[JohnnyHumongous]

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That's kinda retarded, Hellmuth is clearly good for the game. He is an exciting figure and he has a personality that is "real" and Americans can frankly relate to. Did McEnroe ruin tennis? Did Tyson ruin boxing?

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When was the last time you played in a major tournament with Mcenroe and did you ever fight tyson?(fighting tyson was possible I didnt keep track of the tomato cans he fought later on.)

The problem is this, poker players live off players who go there to gamble, dont you think its very hard for a person to want to comeback to play if they just got told they suck and generally treated like crap? If everyone in the casinos treated new players like hellmuth it would seriously hurt poker. Before tv people played poker in home games, but were intimidated to go play live, why do you think this is? Because they didnt want to do look stupid at the table. Thats what pros are afraid of, that every player will become like Phil since he is the face of poker and everyone will assume treating bad players like crap is acceptable. If it becomes once again difficult for new players to go to the tables then its a problem.

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Heck no, the fact that Tyson was and is still a main draw long after any skill he had vanished shows that Americans don't like boring, by-the-book heroes and entertainment.

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Well Hellmuth is popular, but hes not the only one, I mean Doyle Brunson is by the book, same with Howard Lederer and Barry Greenstein and all 3 are very popular. If you want outside poker examples look at Tiger Woods, when was the last time he told his opponents they suck and should stop playing golf? He is the most popular athlete in this country by the way regardless of how boring I find golf and have never really watched him play, but money wise he is number 1 and thats all that matters.

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You make good points. I guess what I'm saying is that outrageous characters have a place in entertainment and American culture. Name 3 Chicago Bulls players from the 1990s off the top of your head. You'll probably say: Jordan (by the book), Pippen (by the book), and Rodman (outrageous). Jordan attracted certain people to the game, while Rodman drew interest from a different group of people. Both had their place.

[Overdrive]

Phil Hellmuth is very good for poker becuase if everyone would read his book and play hold em like he says too I will be able to retire to my own private island in about 5 minutes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JohnnyHumongous]

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Phil Hellmuth is very good for poker becuase if everyone would read his book and play hold em like he says too I will be able to retire to my own private island in about 5 minutes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Hellmuth's book was more useful to me than any other book. It is clearly written in a casual, readable style (unlike Sklansky et al) and introduces quality concepts that are not obvious, i.e. play tight, top ten hands, position, and the characters.

I picked it up when I was green as hell to poker so obviously that probably slants my opinion but nonetheless, I have *tried* to read upwards of 5 or 10 poker books and none have given me much tangible value at all. At least Hellmuth's book did.

I say this with a complete lack of facetiousness.

[Jorge10]

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I guess what I'm saying is that outrageous characters have a place in entertainment and American culture.

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Thats true, there is definately a place for phil in poker and he does bring in quite a few people.

Also most people dont act like him they grow out of it, I think he did too, but its just expected of him to whine and bitch so if he stopped it would hurt his image and wallet.