I'm trying to win the bare minimum with the nuts

[gh9801]

Limper - 48/0/0.48 over 151 hands
BB - 13/9/3 over 1700 hands

Party Poker 5.00/10.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3.00 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks.

River: (3.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks...

Comments appreciated over all streets. Except preflop. Ignore preflop, thanks.

[shant]

3-bet flop hoping to bet/3-bet the turn or call the flop hoping to bet/3-bet the turn.

Checking the turn on this free-card-wanting heavy board is unhappy.

I always liked that thing Entity said about not getting fancy heads up and out of position and this is definitely not the spot for it.

[Harv72b]

Yeah, we all know I have a weakness for fancy lines in situations like this, but on this board I'd rather just 3-bet the flop &amp; lead the turn--too many draws that'll gladly pay the toll.

And of course you know that you're actually holding the third nuts. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[gh9801]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet flop hoping to bet/3-bet the turn or call the flop hoping to bet/3-bet the turn.

Checking the turn on this free-card-wanting heavy board is unhappy.

I always liked that thing Entity said about not getting fancy heads up and out of position and this is definitely not the spot for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, usually I'm not going fancy on this flop. But I figured if he had a draw he'd call in order to try to keep the donk in, hence I went for the turn c/r. Still a bad idea?

[MyTurn2Raise]

turn c/r a bad idea. Raiser likely had top pair, a middle pair with an overcard, flush draw, or over card with a gutshot straight draw. You're giving him the free card.

The only hands you are behind are sets, 9T, or Q9...not very likely in the range of hands.

[shant]

Just because he has tight stats doesn't mean he's going to do one thing or the other with a draw. I stand by my original post.

[gh9801]

What about the attempt to c/r on the river, hoping to induce a bluff?

[bambi]

[ QUOTE ]
What about the attempt to c/r on the river, hoping to induce a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO

Just bet, raise, that is all there is, no checking, missed a lot of action here

[gh9801]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about the attempt to c/r on the river, hoping to induce a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO

Just bet, raise, that is all there is, no checking, missed a lot of action here

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a busted draw, if I bet he's just going to fold. His turn check most of the time signifies a draw

[bambi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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What about the attempt to c/r on the river, hoping to induce a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO

Just bet, raise, that is all there is, no checking, missed a lot of action here

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a busted draw, if I bet he's just going to fold. His turn check most of the time signifies a draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since youve already missed out on 1.5bb you might as well lose another and give him a free showdown

If your a winning 2bb/100 player youve just worked an hour for free

[gh9801]

[ QUOTE ]
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What about the attempt to c/r on the river, hoping to induce a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO

Just bet, raise, that is all there is, no checking, missed a lot of action here

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a busted draw, if I bet he's just going to fold. His turn check most of the time signifies a draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since youve already missed out on 1.5bb you might as well lose another and give him a free showdown

If your a winning 2bb/100 player youve just worked an hour for free

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the clever berating. You're a waste of space here, seriously. Do you ever write anything constructive? By the way villain had 95o and he thought a good amount of time before checking behind on the river

[MyTurn2Raise]

my bad...you gave a free card to a gutshot draw with an undercard...LOL

keep betting

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


If your [sic] a winning 2bb/100 player youve just worked an hour for free

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the wrong way to think, and people who write this kind of thing fail to understand EV. When you make a mistake in poker that misses out on a bet or costs you a bet, it doesn't miss out or cost you a full BB most of the time. If you checkraise instead of betting and whiff, yes you lose 1BB in that pot, but if your opponent will bet 25% of the time, then 1/4 times you win 2BBs and 3/4 times you lose 1BB. So the OP in my example would actually be losing .25BBs in EV. That's 1/8 of an hour's work.

[W. Deranged]

I think putting yourself in a position of checking the turn against a TAG who is capable of raising a draw heavy board with draws is very dangerous.

The presence of many draws, a decent opponent who will have the ability to check behind a draw on the turn, and your bad position means that I think you need to be quite straightforward here.

Three-bet the flop and lead the turn.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


If your [sic] a winning 2bb/100 player youve just worked an hour for free

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the wrong way to think, and people who write this kind of thing fail to understand EV. When you make a mistake in poker that misses out on a bet or costs you a bet, it doesn't miss out or cost you a full BB most of the time. If you checkraise instead of betting and whiff, yes you lose 1BB in that pot, but if your opponent will bet 25% of the time, then 1/4 times you win 2BBs and 3/4 times you lose 1BB. So the OP in my example would actually be losing .25BBs in EV. That's 1/8 of an hour's work.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an EXTREMELY important point that many people miss out on. Very few mistakes in poker are actually equivalent to the size of the bet involved. Nice hand, PJ.

[ QUOTE ]
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What about the attempt to c/r on the river, hoping to induce a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO

Just bet, raise, that is all there is, no checking, missed a lot of action here

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a busted draw, if I bet he's just going to fold. His turn check most of the time signifies a draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Well since youve already missed out on 1.5bb you might as well lose another and give him a free showdown

If your a winning 2bb/100 player youve just worked an hour for free

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're gonna be mean, at least be make sure you're right. To start, it's not actually a -1.5BB play just because that's how it turned out this time. Second, if gh is a 2BB/100 player, he's a 2BB/100 player with mistakes like this. Hence, saying he worked an hour for free is wrong.

And while I'm on the subject of being technical about fairly unimportant stuff, this is not the nuts.

bambi I agree he needs to 3-bet the flop and lead the turn, but at this point villain is folding if it's bet to him unless he has a weak pair. A draw seems a lot more likely. Inducing a bluff here is about the only way hero is getting any extra money here. Not pretty, but as played I agree with the river. Anyone else?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


If your [sic] a winning 2bb/100 player youve just worked an hour for free

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the wrong way to think, and people who write this kind of thing fail to understand EV. When you make a mistake in poker that misses out on a bet or costs you a bet, it doesn't miss out or cost you a full BB most of the time. If you checkraise instead of betting and whiff, yes you lose 1BB in that pot, but if your opponent will bet 25% of the time, then 1/4 times you win 2BBs and 3/4 times you lose 1BB. So the OP in my example would actually be losing .25BBs in EV. That's 1/8 of an hour's work.

[/ QUOTE ]

This should be added to the FAQ or something. I remember that before I realized this, I would be pretty depressed when I missed a bet because I was thinking I just wasted the last few dozen hands.