Am I playing too tight O/8?

[milobloom]

5-10 game with kill. Rarely raised before flop, often 7-8 players call pre-flop. Over last 2 years I've played perhaps 40 hours of O/8. Have read and re-read Zee's book and played plenty of Hold'Em and Omaha High. Here's my starting play, all opinions are welcome:

Early: Call with 4 cards 9 up with a pair and/or no gap.
Call with A,2 or better - A, 3 if flush w/A.
Later: Call w/high pair and connectors (eg. TTQ8)
Call with 2,3 or better

Do I need to open up a little more or am I just getting impatient?

[Jimbo]

This may really scare you. Way too loose IMHO.

[El Dukie]

I'm with Jimbo on this one. For a typical lower-limit O/8 game, these criteria are too loose. Much of your advantage over other players at low-limit comes simply from playing much tighter than they do.

As far as your specific criteria: I wouldn't call with 4 cards 9 or higher in early position. Four cards T or higher, maybe, if there's something else going for them (like a suited Ace); as far as "with a pair" -- only AA, KK, QQ are big enough for my tastes. If you hit a set, you want it to be top set in this game. (Okay, I might play something like TJJQ, if my Q is suited.)

A,2 or A,3 with a suited Ace are okay for low cards. Early. I wouldn't call late with just a 2,3, however. One of the starting hand criteria in Ray's book is something like "A-3 is playable with position, 2-3 is usually not." If my 2,3 also included another wheel card, or was part of a 23KK, then yeah, I'd probably play it. But not just a 2-3 alone with nothing else going for it.

In later position, you should also be looking for raising opportunities, especially with hands like A,2 with a suited Ace; A,A,2; or A,2-wheel card. Once you've got a lot of players in for one bet, you need to build the pot for those times the flop hits you.

[milobloom]

Agreed, I only play 2,3 if there is something else with it. Keep in mind I NEVER fear a raise in this game so out of position with TTJQ or 9TJQ is still a loose call?

It seems as if I'm playing 10%-15% of the hands I'm dealt (BB excluded). Perhaps I simply have a low number of hours to make a true assesment. Thanks for the comments.

[Buzz]

Milo - I don't think it's as much a matter of your playing too many or too few hands as it is being too simplistic about your choices of hands to play. For example, you make no mention of suited cards - yet flushes probably make up in the neighborhood of one fourth of the wins for high in a loosish game. (A baby back-door flush made while drawing to the nut low beats a flopped ace high straight).

I hate to criticize the hands you have chosen as starters without offering better alternatives, but the choice of starting hands seems much more complex to me than your starting hand list. Let me give it a short try.

"Early: Call with 4 cards 9 up with a pair and/or no gap."

Four cards nine and up with a pair and/or no gap is probably not generally a good choice from early position. Ten and up is a much better choice than "9 and up."

"Later: Call w/high pair and connectors (eg. TTQ8)"

TTQ8 is probbly not a good choice from any position, but I might play it from late position in a very loose-passive-pre-flop game, intending to fold if the flop didn't hit me squarely. TQQKd (d means double suited) would be a better, though still not great, choice.

"Call with 2,3 or better"

23MM, 23MH, and 23HH are not generally profitable hands. (M means middle card and H means high card). Even A3MM and A3MH are usually poor choices. (I know I left out A3HH - that's a whole other story). The ace being suited here would make A3MM and A3MH very marginal, to be perhaps played in some situtations - but probably not expected to be generally profitable in the long run. A hand like Ah3h4cKc is decent, but certainly not premium. I'd probably want to see the flop with Ah3h4cKc from almost any position, but you don't want to get trapped chasing with the hand.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

As everyone said this is way too loose.

A few key concepts are:
The object of the game is to scoop the pot.
After the flop you should have or be drawing to the nuts.

These should guide your preflop hand selection.

A hand with 9 T has the problem that is the board contains 678 to give you the nut straight, someone will take half the pot with the low. If higher cards come a bigger straight will likely be possible. I do not play any high only hands that contain an 8 or a 9.

23 without an Ace is usually unplayable unless the other two cards are extremely strong. Some 23xx hands that could be playable in late position are:
2345 ds s ns (double suited, suited, non-suited)
2346 ds s ns
23KK ds
You need for an Ace to flop to continue with these hands for low.

Big pairs are Aces and Kings. Even Queens is stretching it and need to be played with caution after the flop.

[milobloom]

Thanks everyone - seems I need to review the Zee book again. I'm still surprised as it seems I'm playing very few hands in a game that is taken 7 and 8 way before the flop. Any idea on number of hands I could expect to play given these starting requirements (10%-15% or as high as 20%?). Another question: I recently played in California in a dealer's choice game where it would often be 2-3 or 4 bet pre-flop O/8 - what the heck do you do there? Maybe I should stick to hold'em and O/High.

[PseudoPserious]

I played my first live low-limit O/8 over the weekend. It felt like I was playing far too tight, but reading this thread has comforted me greatly.

PP

[chaos]

I play approximately 18% of the hands dealt to me outside of the blinds.

I play less hands in early position. Eliminating some of the weaker Ace-less hands.

[El Dukie]

O/8 can be a very frustrating game, since you need to play tight, and even when you hit the flop you'll often miss your draws or have re-draws made against you. That's why it's so important to play hands with scoop potential. When you do get there on the end, you want to get more than half the pot.

On the other hand, lower limit O/8 tends to play much more straight-forward than a game like Hold'em, especially post-flop, since the number of draws possible usually make it difficult for players to run over the table. (Not that there aren't sometimes opportunities to do so, but that's for another thread...)

Keep playing tight. You'll win in the end.