hypothetical face-up hand. how would you play?

[bernie]

it's HU on the flop

say you have JTh

your opponent (button) has KQs

the flop is 3s Ts Jd

action? and action if you acted after the KQ opponent. if possible, expain why...

turn K or Q

action? and action if you acted after opponent with KQ. if possible, explain why...

do you really like JTs in this spot?

have fun /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

b

ps.. i tried to explain this type of situation to my pa. thought itd be fun to post.

[rigoletto]

What's the preflop action?

[Louie Landale]

Looks like you are even money the whole way, not counting the rake.

Capping the flop to insure the pot is big enougn to warrant a 4-out turn call isn't going to help.

- Louie

[bernie]

preflop action doesnt really matter since both players know each others cards. its face-up.

say the JTs is the BB and the other guy limped on the button. some tight ass folded the sb. if that helps.

b

[rigoletto]

Ups, sorry didn't pay attention to the headline. Oh and Louis is right by the way /as usual).

[RockLobster]

This is not right. Picard had the decency to refuse to infect The Borg with the formula that would drive them all batty. Why would you do this to us?

/forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I assume you know his hand, but he doesn't know yours. Even if you both know each other's hand, it makes no difference.

Since you are ahead, both on the flop and turn, you should do whatever you possibly can to get the most money in the pot, to cut down on his odds, even if you can't force him to make a negative EV play. If you're first, you don't want to give him a free card, so you bet. You raise as many times as given the opportunity. On the turn, it's the same, despite the fact that he has many outs. You've still got more than half the deck, so bet and raise as much as possible. I don't see that the answer can possibly be much different than that.

If you have the KQ, and you know you can't possibly make him fold the TJ, then you check-call, because you are behind.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

sorry, miscounted, he has slightly more outs than I thought on the turn, 9 flush, 2 trips, 3 - two pair, and 6 straight, for 20 total.

In that case, you might want to lay off the aggression on the turn, since he's now a slight favorite. But you should still bet and raise the flop.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

my correction was for MY post, not louie's

[Louie Landale]

He's got 8 clean flush outs and 6 more straight outs for 14 outs. He's a slight favorite to end up with a straight or better. JT can redraw, however, and although I didn't do the exact math, but even taking into consideation the draw can make two-pair or trips, I'd guess JT is a tiny favorite. But they are both "dogs" if there is a rake.

On the turn (the draw spikes a K), KQ now has 22 outs: 8 flush, 6 straight, 2Ks, 3Qs, and 33s. There are 44 unseen cards making them dead even on the turn.

It doesn't really matter what either does.

- Louie

[bernie]

in this hand, i was trying to show my dad how you could have what 'appears' to be the best hand, but is still an underdog to win.

i actually meant to put the J as the other flush card and not the 3, but oh well...get to that later

i look at this hand this way. if i had the KQ, id be capping through the river, if able. im a favorite on the flop, and even on the turn, although if the J were the spade, then id actually still have a slight lead. maybe by a gnat's ass, but a lead none the less. even though im against 2-pair.

now, other than the rake, which loves this type of hand, the JTs is in a 'technical' tough spot. let's pretend there is no rake on this hand. every bet it puts in on the flop is very slight -EV. he's even on the turn. if the J were the spade he'd still be behind on the turn, though it is by a hair. there's that gnat again, wish he'd put some shorts on. yet you dont want to let him draw to infinite odds.

so if you know the KQs will bet the flop and turn, i would check. he will charge himself for the draw. anytime he doesnt bet, hes losing a little money longrun. if he's likely to check, not bet a draw, id bet, but not reraise. (this is face-up remember. if the cards were hidden this flop is getting capped, and JT wouldnt slow down until either a scare card or a possible 3 bet on the turn)

obviously whoever hits the river isnt collecting anything, since they both know eachothers hands and will fold the loser.

now say the JTs acted last. this is a little easier. if the KQ bets, you call. if he checks, you bet. and call the raise. although on the turn you could go wild getting even money. but if the J is the spade, your losing a little. just a titch.

i was trying to explain to my pa about betting drawing hands and how you can win in the long run, even though you miss your draw. i think i got him to understand it a little.

but i thought this hand would be kinda fun to look at in a face-up view. and how to see how you could have a monster, and still be behind, odds-wise. even having 2 pair on the turn and still being behind. (sub Js)

so if it's all about only betting with +EV, the JT is hating it, technically. though it is close enough to even to not really change the play of the hand, unless it was...face-up.

note: of course betting isnt always about this as far as this defined, other factors do come into play, but there are some players who actually think this way.

i was also hoping to inspire some players to look at their hands a little differently. another angle of how the hand can look.

anyways...

thanks for all the replies. this was fun.

b

[Nottom]

Flop: I check-call (or call) since I believe he is actually a favorite to win the hand at this point.

Turn: Check-raise or raise (I assume he doesn't know what I have) and try and get as many bets in the pot here since I am now a 21:13 favorite.

As for liking my hand, on the flop its not my favorite, but on the turn I'm certainly liking it.

[Nottom]

missed the straight outs 3 outs and can't do math today , that gives him another 9.

Gives him 22 outs out of 44 so you are dead even here, if the rake hasn't capped yet no reason to help it out. Check.

[Nottom]

He actually only has 19 outs since one of his flush outs fills you up.