The new forum: A positive for the online poker playing community.

[Joe Tall]

It is about time 2+2 allowed such discussion about affiliates and rakeback programs. I know the big dogs have open the door to this room but since this barn(2+2) that I know has now become a mansion, it's can only be a positive.

Without knowing the numbers, I am confident to say there are more poker accounts opened online without affiliate assistance everyday than with assistance. I am also willing to say that there are more accounts open that were formerly funded, that are not funded now as most players go broke. In fact, the numbers are likely not even close in both accounts.

Such affiliate programs bring new players to the site, larger volume players to the site, offer incentives to the player to play more hands (to obtain more rakeback) and assist with dealing with the variance of the game for serious players. Also, by depositing the monies earned directly to player’s accounts, the monies are in turn, used to play more hands. It goes forward from there.

The more players that are getting online to play, that use affiliate assistance, the more online poker will continue to grow.

Thank you 2+2,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

Lorinda and others,

I know you have read this but no comment?

Or is what I've said enough?

-Joe Tall

[geormiet]

I agree with you. The more people receiving rakeback, the better - and I feel like rakeback is the indirect path towards rakefree (or reasonable rake) online poker.

Where do you see online poker in a few years from now? I don't think it's unreasonable to hope that rakeback percentages will increase significantly, as will the number of players (especially recreational losing players) who receive it.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you see online poker in a few years from now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hundreds of thousands of eight-tablers swapping money back and forth.

This is a little strange since your name is not green.

Shilling for affiliates now Joe?

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Where do you see online poker in a few years from now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hundreds of thousands of eight-tablers swapping money back and forth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like in the casinos.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Just like in the casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never seen a person play 8 tables in a casino before, but maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention and I just didn't notice them.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a little strange since your name is not green.

Shilling for affiliates now Joe?

[/ QUOTE ]
Or maybe it's just possible that a respected, well known poster just happens to like the idea of rakeback (and this forum) on its own merits.

Since this forum started I have mostly lurked, and read the opinion of Lori and others, who I like, but think they are dead wrong on this subject. I was glad to see a guy like Joe Tall come forward and express something positive about this forum.

But WTF do I know? I'm obviously another shill in green after all (though I don't mod this forum).

[rwesty]

Of course he likes rakeback, he's a large affiliate himself.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course he likes rakeback, he's a large affiliate himself.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps my sarcasm detector needs some tweaking.

It would not be the first time I put my foot in my mouth.

EDIT: I assume you were refering to LC, not Joe Tall. If the later is the case, then no, I am not an affilate.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]

Or maybe it's just possible that a respected, well known poster just happens to like the idea of rakeback (and this forum) on its own merits.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's possible to like both rakeback and the idea of this forum and yet be annoyed at the cloak-and-dagger [censored] that seems to pervade affiliatedom, and its expression in the prohibition of free discussion here. I also think that soliciting customers while deliberately withholding information from them, as the AEV guys are doing, is at least a little bit shady.

I've been pressing (lightly) for an affiliates/rakeback forum for months. I agree we need somewhere to talk about this stuff, and I'm glad somebody got it off the ground. But in its current form I don't see who it's supposed to be useful to. Why they're willing to pay several thousand dollars a month to sponsor a useless forum confuses me.

[rwesty]

[ QUOTE ]
I also think that soliciting customers while deliberately withholding information from them, as the AEV guys are doing, is at least a little bit shady.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[ QUOTE ]
But in its current form I don't see who it's supposed to be useful to. Why they're willing to pay several thousand dollars a month to sponsor a useless forum confuses me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It will be most useful for making affiliateEV money. The reason they're willing to pay that much is for this reason. This forum will not advance rakeback at all for the average player. For this reason I don't think anyone should use affiliateEV's services.

we arent delibrately witholding information. we are attempting to be as hands off as possible. we are going to have rakeback providers advertising on this forum and let them be the conscience of the forum along with you 2p2ers. if you all want to get hung up on the rules we have in place:

1. Do not post affiliate links
2. No spam
3. No libelous comments towards affiliates
4. Do not post affiliate/rakeback percentages

then may i remind you, this is a commercial forum that we paid for. within these confines there is a multitude of advantageous information for any online poker player.

affiliateEV has nothing to do with providing individual players rakeback. it helps affiliates startup businesses. as i have said numerous times in the past 3 days, this is experimental and will be a learning process for us. i dont see any of the other affiliates out there trying to provide a service of this nature.

we have several ideas to run this forum that we havent had the time yet to implement, i think you will all like what we are about to present. we appreciate your trying to bear with us as we acclimate to this new forum.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
we arent delibrately witholding information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but practically every post rt1 makes is "I'm not going to reveal that," "we can't tell you that," or "that's private information." Then the rest of you come along and say you're not deliberately witholding? Read your compatriot's posts please.

[rwesty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course he likes rakeback, he's a large affiliate himself.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps my sarcasm detector needs some tweaking.

It would not be the first time I put my foot in my mouth.

EDIT: I assume you were refering to LC, not Joe Tall. If the later is the case, then no, I am not an affilate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you Joe Tall or Greg J? I won't post the actual website as I'm guessing this is against the rules, but there is a website that is named after Joe Tall that specifically says he offers rakeback and is a 2+2er. How can you say that Joe Tall is not an affiliate?

[rt1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we arent delibrately witholding information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but practically every post rt1 makes is "I'm not going to reveal that," "we can't tell you that," or "that's private information." Then the rest of you come along and say you're not deliberately witholding? Read your compatriot's posts please.

[/ QUOTE ]

post / pm me some examples. i will try to clarify. do not bother asking me what % i make as an affiliate because i am not going to tell you. that is private information, i would never ask you how much you make / what your paycheck is.

-Ryan

[rwesty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we arent delibrately witholding information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but practically every post rt1 makes is "I'm not going to reveal that," "we can't tell you that," or "that's private information." Then the rest of you come along and say you're not deliberately witholding? Read your compatriot's posts please.

[/ QUOTE ]

post / pm me some examples. i will try to clarify. do not bother asking me what % i make as an affiliate because i am not going to tell you. that is private information, i would never ask you how much you make / what your paycheck is.

-Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

Knowing the percentage you get is completely different from knowing what your paycheck is. Don't use this as a reason again.

The reason you don't want to give the percentage is you don't want other affiliates to be able to list you as an bargaining example.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
do not bother asking me what % i make as an affiliate because i am not going to tell you. that is private information, i would never ask you how much you make / what your paycheck is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I'm not trying to set up a business partnership with you. You're a big business trying to partner with a bunch of little businesses, but you refuse to provide specifics of your business model. Why on earth you think anyone would partner with you under those conditions baffles me.

[rt1]

[ QUOTE ]

Knowing the percentage you get is completely different from knowing what your paycheck is. Don't use this as a reason again.

The reason you don't want to give the percentage is you don't want other affiliates to be able to list you as an bargaining example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a good reason... Do people at your work walk around telling others how much they make?

I was the same way with poker. I did not talk about my bb/100 or how much I make/made. I like to keep my personal and business finances private and certainly do not want them posted on a message board on the internet. why dont you go over to one of the poker forums and ask people what their bb/100 is... certainly you dont contribute anything to this forum.

i will not respond to you again, i have made it very clear where i/we stand on this issue.

[rwesty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Knowing the percentage you get is completely different from knowing what your paycheck is. Don't use this as a reason again.

The reason you don't want to give the percentage is you don't want other affiliates to be able to list you as an bargaining example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a good reason... Do people at your work walk around telling others how much they make?

I was the same way with poker. I did not talk about my bb/100 or how much I make/made. I like to keep my personal and business finances private and certainly do not want them posted on a message board on the internet. why dont you go over to one of the poker forums and ask people what their bb/100 is... certainly you dont contribute anything to this forum.

i will not respond to you again, i have made it very clear where i/we stand on this issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I state that the paycheck example is bogus and you bring up two more examples of the paycheck example. I echo timprov's concerns. Anyone who does business with you is asking for trouble. The whole rakeback business is just waiting to implode.

[rt1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do not bother asking me what % i make as an affiliate because i am not going to tell you. that is private information, i would never ask you how much you make / what your paycheck is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I'm not trying to set up a business partnership with you. You're a big business trying to partner with a bunch of little businesses, but you refuse to provide specifics of your business model. Why on earth you think anyone would partner with you under those conditions baffles me.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would they partner with me? wow, because i give the best %s, offer great tools, have a team of advisers, and have been through it all... they can learn from my many many mistakes.

ask a few of my affiliates how they like us /images/graemlins/smile.gif or, give us a shot. i would rather have you hate my business after youve tried it.

[craig r]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole rakeback business is just waiting to implode.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this based on?

craig

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The whole rakeback business is just waiting to implode.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this based on?

craig

[/ QUOTE ]

you havent gotten mondays edition of the wall st journal i take it?

and you call yourselves professionals!

[craig r]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The whole rakeback business is just waiting to implode.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this based on?

craig

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have time to read it. I am too busy reading "In Touch" and "The National Inquirer".

craig

you havent gotten mondays edition of the wall st journal i take it?

and you call yourselves professionals!

[/ QUOTE ]

[Inthacup]

but you refuse to provide specifics of your business model.

[ QUOTE ]
Business model: a design of the operations of a business which focuses on how revenue will be generated

[/ QUOTE ]

At AEV, the majority of what we talk about with our users is how to generate revenue and create a successful business model. We discuss stats reporting, employee structure, marketing potential and many other aspects of operation.

Cup

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]

ask a few of my affiliates how they like us /images/graemlins/smile.gif or, give us a shot. i would rather have you hate my business after youve tried it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just a rakeback consumer, one who was leaning toward rakerebate.net in a current decision, and frankly I'm now strongly considering taking a worse offer than what yours might be (from an affiliate who offered more than 25% in writing, no less, something Craig refused to do and one of you said in the forum couldn't be done) because I have no faith in either your honesty or your business sense. It's obvious that you'd rather operate as far from the public eye as possible. I can't say whether it's because you intend to cheat your customers. But then again I can't say it's not, either, because you've set yourselves up to have near-zero accountability. I certainly don't feel like I can trust a verbal offer from Craig at this point; I've sent him email to that effect.

I don't really care if you post your numbers here; it's not all that hard to guess them from the ones on your website. What I do care about is your constant evasions and bullshit metaphors, and the repeated resort to "you're missing information" followed by refusal to provide that information when asked for. The arguments from authority are really getting old.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
but you refuse to provide specifics of your business model.

[ QUOTE ]
Business model: a design of the operations of a business which focuses on how revenue will be generated

[/ QUOTE ]

At AEV, the majority of what we talk about with our users is how to generate revenue and create a successful business model. We discuss stats reporting, employee structure, marketing potential and many other aspects of operation.

Cup

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you understand the word "your"? I'm quite certain you're perfectly willing to discuss their business model, as well as their salaries if it comes to that.

[Inthacup]

Do you understand the word "your"? I'm quite certain you're perfectly willing to discuss their business model, as well as their salaries if it comes to that.

It is implied that the business model that we provide to our users is based on the business model we've used to become successful. The difference is that it is tailored to each user based on age, location, budget and several other factors. We discuss our business model at length with our users.

Do you understand that the percentages we offer are higher than the percentages that an affiliate could receive if he/she signed up directly to the site? This is a catalyst that helps affiliates earn revenues and create marketing budgets that would take several months(at least) to achieve.

You'll have to excuse me for not posting our numbers on a public internet board to satisfy your curiousity. Even if I did post them, people would critize us for bragging. Someone will always try to find fault with our reasoning.

I have reasonably explained our position on this matter. If you still disagree, then that is your right.

Cup

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]

Where do you see online poker in a few years from now?

[/ QUOTE ]

About twice as big as it is now. It's still growing and we are starting to dawn on the affiliate-age and this will help it grow even more.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a little strange since your name is not green.

Shilling for affiliates now Joe?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I strongly believe in everything I've said in my original post.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course he likes rakeback, he's a large affiliate himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly believe in everthing I've said in my original post. I've repeatedly heard the arguement from several others that rakeback will raise the total-rake for poker rooms online and that it is a negative thing. I highly disagree with this and wanted my thoughts to be known.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]

Hundreds of thousands of eight-tablers swapping money back and forth.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you basing this on?

[GrannyMae]

I've repeatedly heard the arguement from several others that rakeback will raise the total-rake for poker rooms online and that it is a negative thing. I highly disagree with this and wanted my thoughts to be known.


i wish nothing but the best to the operators of this forum. i also respect your opinion joe. however, i don't think anyone can rationally argue that rakeback does not increase rake rates. if there is an argument that disputes this, i would love to hear it.

the bottom line is rakeback is here to stay, and the hope is that rake for online play will always be lower than the rake for live play.

even if rakeback has caused rakeback tolerant sites to have higher rake than rakeback intolerant sites (stars, paradise), it is still MUCH cheaper than B&amp;M. also, if players use applied knowledge to improve their game, the rake being slightly higher at one site versus another is irrelevant as long as it stays under B&amp;M rates.

for the record, i am an affiliate that does not do rakeback. it is not because i think it is evil, it is just because i think it is not worth my time for the margins that the bigger affiliates are working on. i'm not big enough to compete, but i accept the fact that my marketing has to be toward non-pros.

i did not really want to get involved here joe, but to say that rakeback does not exasperate higher rakes is just plain silly. but, it is not high enough for the typical pro to be worried about IMO.

[Joe Tall]

but to say that rakeback does not exasperate higher rakes is just plain silly

I can't say that rakeback doesn't have a part of raising rates; yes, that would be silly. However, it's not as directly related as I've heard it argued. There are much more factors involved. In the expanding market, costs rise, in turn, the site has to charge more for addition support, accounting, customer service, etc. Sending them an email costs them money.

In addition, the shear fact that the most players who are playing online don't even know what rake is, has a lot to with it. The sites can raise rates because most don't even notice and so few complain compared to the larger scale of players.

I feel, as I stated above, affiliate program's positives outweight any negatives for the online poker community, including rakeback programs.

it is still MUCH cheaper than B&amp;M. also, if players use applied knowledge to improve their game, the rake being slightly higher at one site versus another is irrelevant as long as it stays under B&amp;M rates.

This is 100% true and likely forever will be as the opportunity cost of B&amp;M poker is so much higer than online poker.

Thanks for your reply Granny as I just puked on my monitor when my Red Sox gave up a 5-spot in the first, sorry to get some on your avatar's chin... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

Ok Larry Joe. I will believe you.