i cant be ahead..........

[silkyslim]

VIllian is 30/8/1.2. Comments on all streets plz.
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (19.66 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 22.66 BB

[Ajax410]

I play this hand the exact same way with the exception of the flop, which I cap. If his turn play is the same following a flop cap, that's when I slow down and decide to just call the turn 3-bet and the river bet.

Alex

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
I play this hand the exact same way with the exception of the flop, which I cap. If his turn play is the same following a flop cap, that's when I slow down and decide to just call the turn 3-bet and the river bet.

Alex

[/ QUOTE ]
not to be results oriented, but is there any way you would lay this down after the 3-bet or is htat di horrible? i mean what can i be beating after that and what draws do I have?

[Nick C]

UTG+1's flop call/3-bet quite likely means a big made hand (two pair or a set) or a big draw.

When he 3-bets the turn, I think we're in big trouble against his range, though a hand like A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif is still possible.

Once the river card completes the flush, our biggest hope is that Villain decided to play like a maniac this hand or holds a weirdly played JJ or something. But the pot is very big.

I might just start calling down after the flop check/3-bet. (I would bet if by some chance UTG+1 checked the turn.) But the board is draw-heavy, the pot is multiway, and your hand is vulnerable, so I can see wanting to get another raise in.

Capping the flop and then calling down if UTG+1 leads the turn is another idea, although this plan does invite him to checkraise again on the turn.

Anyway, it's possible my knowledge that UTG+1 never slowed down is influencing me, but a call/3-bet does often mean a strong hand or strong draw.

[Bill Lumberg]

This is one of those hands where I call the flop and raise the turn blank. I'm not sure a raise on the flop serves much of a purpose. But, the way you played it, I agree with capping the flop, more for the info.

On the river, even though the pot is huge, I think you are just throwing money away. With villain's stats, he's not 3-betting the flop and turn unless he's got at least two pair, plus you've got the other player hanging in. After putting them on probable hands, you have no shot.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1's flop call/3-bet quite likely means a big made hand (two pair or a set) or a big draw.

When he 3-bets the turn, I think we're in big trouble against his range, though a hand like A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif is still possible.

Once the river card completes the flush, our biggest hope is that Villain decided to play like a maniac this hand or holds a weirdly played JJ or something. But the pot is very big.

I might just start calling down after the flop check/3-bet. (I would bet if by some chance UTG+1 checked the turn.) But the board is draw-heavy, the pot is multiway, and your hand is vulnerable, so I can see wanting to get another raise in.

Capping the flop and then calling down if UTG+1 leads the turn is another idea, although this plan does invite him to checkraise again on the turn.

Anyway, it's possible my knowledge that UTG+1 never slowed down is influencing me, but a call/3-bet does often mean a strong hand or strong draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
the flop cap is interesting but i think i have a better chance of the other guys folding with a turn raise, thats why i ran the call/raise, to protect. so no one can find a fold anywhere? if i call the turn 3-bet i need a showdown for sure. so i dont know.,..........

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of those hands where I call the flop and raise the turn blank. I'm not sure a raise on the flop serves much of a purpose. But, the way you played it, I agree with capping the flop, more for the info.

On the river, even though the pot is huge, I think you are just throwing money away. With villain's stats, he's not 3-betting the flop and turn unless he's got at least two pair, plus you've got the other player hanging in. After putting them on probable hands, you have no shot.

[/ QUOTE ]
if i call the turn i am committong to a showdown, since im drawing to 2 outs. so the only thing i can see is folding to the 3 bet and saving 2 bets

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of those hands where I call the flop and raise the turn blank. I'm not sure a raise on the flop serves much of a purpose. But, the way you played it, I agree with capping the flop, more for the info.



[/ QUOTE ]

With a pot that is already quite large and a player behind you, with 2 very scary overcards to your hand, plus gutshots and other such dangerous stuff possible, there is a ton of value in simply getting the player behind you to fold. I think it is also a clear raise for value since there is a caller on the flop who will likely put in extra money. I tend to make my value raises early in multiway pots, because often flop callers have weak hands they'll dump on the turn and by waiting we forgo taking money from them.

So:

1. Pre-flop is straightforward.

2. Raising the flop the first time is pretty clear.

3. I think capping the flop makes the turn easier to play and is appropriate for value reasons as I've already said. The main point in my mind is that I prefer to put no more than 2 big bets in on the turn, rather than three. Waiting to raise the turn, in my opinion, puts us in a tougher situation and generally means we loose more when we are behind. If we lead the turn and get raised and reraised, we have an easy fold; if we get check-raised, then I think it's much easier to potentially call down from there. We do have outs against two pair which is important.

4. River is damn tough. You are certainly not winning this pot hardly ever, but it is so huge I can't really fault a fold. If you are raised by the player left to act, I think that is the point where you really will have to fold, even though it's just one more bet.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
not to be results oriented, but is there any way you would lay this down after the 3-bet or is htat di horrible? i mean what can i be beating after that and what draws do I have?

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, against a hand like T9, you have a decent number of hidden outs that UTG probably isn't stepping on that much.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1's flop call/3-bet quite likely means a big made hand (two pair or a set) or a big draw.

When he 3-bets the turn, I think we're in big trouble against his range, though a hand like A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif is still possible.

Once the river card completes the flush, our biggest hope is that Villain decided to play like a maniac this hand or holds a weirdly played JJ or something. But the pot is very big.

I might just start calling down after the flop check/3-bet. (I would bet if by some chance UTG+1 checked the turn.) But the board is draw-heavy, the pot is multiway, and your hand is vulnerable, so I can see wanting to get another raise in.

Capping the flop and then calling down if UTG+1 leads the turn is another idea, although this plan does invite him to checkraise again on the turn.

Anyway, it's possible my knowledge that UTG+1 never slowed down is influencing me, but a call/3-bet does often mean a strong hand or strong draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
the flop cap is interesting but i think i have a better chance of the other guys folding with a turn raise, thats why i ran the call/raise, to protect. so no one can find a fold anywhere? if i call the turn 3-bet i need a showdown for sure. so i dont know.,..........

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to think very seriously about what you are protecting against. No one has two overcards against you unless there's some odd AK out there. Flush draws aren't going any where, and neither are open-ended draws, usually. Based on the play of the hand, I doubt there are many one-overcard + gutshot combos; those are the only things we really would be looking to fold with a turn raise, and I think the other factors (such as limiting your liability on the big bet street and extracting value from players with decent hands that might fold on the turn) make capping the flop and leading the turn a bit better.

Basically, the pot is so gigantic even by the point of three bets going in on the flop that I don't think protection is going to be particularly possible anyway. If one of the players is holding a weak hand, he may fold for one turn bet anyway; many of the things he'd call one with he'd call two with as it is.

[ep510]

I'd call the turn 3-bet (knowing that I'm probably behind) since I have odds to hit a set or counterfeit villian's possible two pair. When the river comes 8 club (ruining the chance that you would be ahead of villian's possible FD or SD), I think you can make a fairly comfortable fold on the river here. I seriously doubt you'll be good 5% of the time.

[detruncate]

I like a flop cap and plan to shut down my aggression if I'm led into on the turn. We open up the possibility of a c/r if we're checked to, but I'm probably going to want to raise the turn if I just call the flop 3-bet since his call/3-bet could easily be a big draw rather than a big made hand and the pot is very large at this point. A bet/call limits our outlay on the turn to 2 BB, which saves us 1 SB when the alternative is what happened to you.

I can't see what we're ahead of on the river, as we've been hoping that he had one of the hands that have now completed rather than a flopped monster. But I still probably put in one more bet and hope he dramatically overplayed something.