View Full Version : are re-buy tournaments as dumb as they seem to me?
Adam22
10-01-2005, 01:21 PM
they seem like a way worse deal than freezeouts to me because to be on an even playing field you have to invest a lot of dead money that doesnt go to the prize pool. is there any real value to playing rebuy tourneys aside from when there are a very small number of players compared to the gauranteed amount ( since tourneys with gauranteed prize pools seem to be the only reason that a rebuy tourney ever makes any sense )?
TwistedEcho
10-01-2005, 01:24 PM
you get to play deepstacked poker which most of the field can't play and don't understand. You also get a nice prizepool /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I'm not sure what you mean by dead money that doesn't go to the prize pool, could you elaborate?
Adam22
10-01-2005, 01:57 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean by dead money that doesn't go to the prize pool, could you elaborate?
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if you enter a 20,000 dollar gauranteed tournament that costs 20 dollars and say so do 99 other people than that means that only 2000 dollars worth of the tournaments gaurantee is covered by the players. so 18,000 of hte prize pool is provided by the site. but if they offer rebuys and add ones, that money doesnt go to the prize pool, it goes straight to the site, to make up for the amount that they put up for hte prize pool so most of the time the site ends up showing a profit and you as a player have to spend more to have a fair shot and than the amount of money in the prize pool is actually less than it would be if you had just entered a freezeout that cost as much as the amount you spent of rebuys and add ons + the buy in.
Adam22
10-01-2005, 02:01 PM
note: thats just how i understand it works, if im wrong on anything let me know. not trying to come off like a know-it-all.
Ahhh ok, I can see that. On stars, I've noticed the guaranteed numbers for the most part are lower than the actual prize pool because of more people entering/rebuying/adding on.
Still, lets say me and you are equal in skill but you start with 1500 chips, and I start with 3000 because I decide I will rebuy/addon. Let's say you double up twice within the first hour to get to the end with 6000 chips, and I double up twice after rebuying immediately to give me 14,000 chips after addon. Since we are both equal, wouldn't that mean I'd have about 2.3x more of a chance of winning than you, not taking into consideration big stack play?
I'd take the better odds and knowing I play better as a big stack, would gladly take advantage of this.
Rounder1419
10-01-2005, 02:06 PM
If the rebuy and add ons add up to ver 20k (using your example) then those stay in the prize pool and the prize pool would be 30k or whatever as opposed to the site pocketing everything above 20k. Also, rebuys are prolly not too profitble for sites b/c i will use the stars 10 rebuys, the 1000 that enter only pay a 1 dollar fee and every rebuy and add on is 10 not 11 so stars gets no money form the rebuys and add ons they just get your first entry so it seems like no as profitable for them as other ones
Exitonly
10-01-2005, 02:10 PM
no way.. you get to play deepstacked poker, lottts of money in the pot, and you're paying a damn small entry fee to do so (10+1, for what's equivalent to a 30-100 buyyin)
Exitonly
10-01-2005, 02:10 PM
no way.. you get to play deepstacked poker, lottts of money in the pot, and you're paying a damn small entry fee to do so ($1 fee , for what's equivalent to a 30-100 buyyin)
JohnFR
10-01-2005, 02:11 PM
Your logic isn't quite right, and I think that a quick explantion is needed.
A site provides let's say a $10R with a garauntee of $20k, that means they figure that enough players will play and rebuy/addon enough to cover the $20k. The thing is if they offered a tourney instead that was a $10 freezeout they wouldn't garauntee as high of a prize pool, they might garauntee a prize pool of $5k. The reason is they know that in a rebuy people will spend around 2.5x-4.5x the buyin rebuying and adding on, therefore allowing them to garauntee more than a freezeout tourney can garauntee. Also, ALL money in a rebuy/addon tourney besides the initial entry fee goes to the prize pool, you are essentially playing a $40+1 instead of a $40+4, if you play a $10 rebuy and rebuy 2 times and add-on once. Also, in rebuys there are more chips in play compared to the number of people, which means you can play deep stacked poker which is more +EV to good players than short stacked poker.
Hope this helps.
Cheers!
John
yvesaint
10-01-2005, 02:23 PM
Almost all sites that I know of plan it out so that rebuys + addons eventually cover their "guarantee". For example, Prima has two big tournaments a day, both $20k guarantees. One is a 100+9 with 50 rebuys and 50 add-ons - about 100 people join, so that is $10k right there, and almost every time, rebuys + addons make the prize pool around $26k. The other $20k guarantee is a 10+1 with 10 rebuys and 10 add-ons. About 1000 people join that one, so again, that is already $10k in the pot, and rebuys/add-ons also make that prize pool around $26k.
betgo
10-01-2005, 03:29 PM
Rebuys are generally a better deal as far as rake. Aside from Party Poker, there is generally no rake on rebuys or addons for online or live tournaments.
1) if the rebuy doesn't have a guarantee, then obviously the money goes to the prize pool.
2) if it does have a guarantee, then the guarantee is higher because of the rebuy. If the money "isn't going to the prize pool," that means that there's overlay, which means it's +EV for the average player to play, which means it's very +EV for 2+2ers to play.
[quote but if they offer rebuys and add ones, that money doesnt go to the prize pool, it goes straight to the site, to make up for the amount that they put up for hte prize pool so most of the time the site ends up showing a profit
[/ QUOTE ]
?????If the site doesn't meet the guarantee,then how are they making any profit?They are losing money.
I'm sorry but your logic,well,just isn't logical.
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Rebuys are generally a better deal as far as rake. Aside from Party Poker, there is generally no rake on rebuys or addons for online or live tournaments.
[/ QUOTE ]
Party no longer charges a vig on rebuys and add ons.That's why I've started playing them and they are quite juicy.
Adam22
10-01-2005, 04:14 PM
i was under the assumption thats if there was an excess of money due to the rebuying and such that the excess went to the site and if it was say a 20,000 gauranteed, the prize pool stayed at exactly 20,000. so thats not the case?
Not at stars at least, if it gets over the guaranteed, its over, they don't chop money from the top.
Exitonly
10-01-2005, 04:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
i was under the assumption thats if there was an excess of money due to the rebuying and such that the excess went to the site and if it was say a 20,000 gauranteed, the prize pool stayed at exactly 20,000. so thats not the case?
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no way! why would anyone play a tournament when the company steals from the prizepool ( after already taking an entrty fee) 20k guaranteed just means it's ATLEAST 20k, not, exactly 20k
McMelchior
10-01-2005, 05:29 PM
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thats just how i understand it works
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I'm a big believer in the idea that there's no stupid questions, and the purpose of this board is to exchange ideas and information for mutual improvement of our game, not matter what level we start at.
But this is simply stupid and a waste of the board members time.
If you (the OP) had bothered to take the time to actually watch a re-buy tournament instead of conjuring up your own out-of-this-world (mis)understanding there would have been no reason for this post, and for the time good posters have wasted trying to figure out what you were rambling about.
Before posting, read the FAQ and watch a game, please.
Best,
McMelchior (Johan)
Adam22
10-01-2005, 05:35 PM
i was confused and it was an honest mistakes. that being said, please feel free to eat my [censored].
MicroBob
10-01-2005, 07:02 PM
no. you're way off.
your have some misconceptions about 'guaranteed' tournaments.
in the Stars $45k guaranteed (at 10:15pm each night...a $10 rebuy tourney with over 1,000 players typically) they will usually end up with a prize-pool of over $50k.
If, for some reason, the players don't take enough re-buys and add-ons then the prize-pool will be a MINIMUM of $45k (even if only 12 people sign-up and take only 1 re-buy each).
re-buys and add-ons can be a great value.
you just have to adjust the ACTUAL cost of entering the tournament to reflect that it's a rebuy.
You are playing deeper-stack poker which should give a skilled player a greater advantage (less of a crap-shoot per-se).
And on most sites where there is no additional entry-fee charged on the re-buys it's terrific.
If I play a $25+2 rebuy then I am going to anticipate at least 1 rebuy and 1 add-on (I will always take the re-buy to double-up right at the start...because it is usually correct to do so).
I anticipate an average of 2 re-buys and an add-on (sometimes I'll only have to use my 1 re-buy at the beginning...other times I'll have to take 3 or 4 re-buys).
So when I play a $25+2 rebuy I'm really looking at it as approximately a $100+2 deepish-stack tourney....which is a whole lot better imo then a $100+10 regular-stack tourney.
It's a great value.
You usually have to be willing to be very aggressive in the first hour and, if necessary, take more than a couple re-buys.
That's Barry Greenstein's (and others) stated strategy for re-buys (plays like a borderling maniac in the first hour trying to accumulate chips) and it is mine as well.
What's also great about the rebuys is that the maniac-strategy gets taken WAY too far by a few select morons so you have definite value in trying to increase your stack to 10k or so in the first hour.
and many players are unable to appropriately change gears in the 2nd hour (when it becomes a freeze-out).
I don't play the rebuys on Empire because they charge an additional entry-fee on each rebuy (if it's a 30+3 then it should only be $30 to rebuy...not $33....big-time -EV when they chop off 10% EACH time like that).
Adam22
10-01-2005, 07:19 PM
yeah i got that now. thanks for clearing it up for me, i was confused.
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