Please do not ask people what %s they get, we do not allow this. [Archive]

morgant

10-01-2005, 10:24 AM

jim, you may view this rule as stupid. but you dont have complete information. and are acting soley on yourself getting more money. if this practice is kept up for too long, rakeback will cease altogether. would you prefer 35% next month, then access to rakeback cut off, or 25% for the next 12? i have stickied a more thought out post on this topic. here is an excerpt;

'we dont allow rakeback %'s for many reasons, most importantly, the sites dont allow it. lorinda may ask then, how do we offer it? the sites dont mind paying us within their structured tiers for the marketing we do for them. however, when affilaite XYZ(hypothetical example) starts offering 39% to his players, and that site only gives out 40%. the affiliates like myself, who have built a business around this, cant survive on a 1% profit margin. in time affilaite XYZ wont be able to survive either and eventually the players will be emailing affilaite XYZ asking where the past months payment is. if the market has raised rakeback % to 39%, i must then go negotiate with the pokersite to give me 45% so i can remain profitable and competitive. now the site is struggling to remain profitable and cant offer me 45%, then with the headaches and nonsense they must consider killing the rakeback market, which party did by removing the tracker reporting. in a long winded way, i am hoping some of you read this, and can understand that getting a 1/4th discount on your poker play is a pretty good deal. by bartering and trying to get more, this could potentially kill the market. hence our refusal to allow percentage talks. '

Jim Easton

10-01-2005, 10:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but you dont have complete information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, I already read your post. Your "death spiral" from competition isn't "information", it is conjecture.

[ QUOTE ]
and are acting soley on yourself getting more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong again. I've been where I am for a long time and will not change.

This information is what people want to know. Competition will not destroy the industry.

I certainly can understand why you would want to tell people to take their 25% and be happy.

jman220

10-01-2005, 11:09 AM

First, I completely understand your desire to not allow percentage talks here, and don't argue with it. You paid for this forum, and ultimately, you hope to make money from it. However the analysis and justification you provided in the above post is deeply flawed. From an economics perspective, this is just supply and demand, and the market will stabilize at an efficient rakeback percentage, and it will do this based upon the demand by the consumers (customers), and the supply by the producers (poker sites, how much of their profits they are willing to cut off for more customers to generate more profits). These forces are controlled by the marketplace. And of course, the quickest way for the marketplace to achieve efficiency is for everyone to have complete information, and for that information to be dispersed widely, which of course means knowing the rakeback percentage numbers. Now, like I said, I understand why you don't want these published, because you have whatever numbers you sell your rakeback at, and you don't want competitors to be able to use a forum you created and you pay for to attract business at your expense. And like I said, this is fine. But lets not make these spurious arguments as to why you have this policy, most of us myself included will just accept that you paid for this forum.
Discussion of rb percentages anywhere will not lead to the demise of rakeback, unless the demise of rakeback is the efficient outcome that would have occurred anyway, in which case discussion or lack thereof of rakeback will have no effect on the inevitable outcome.

morgant

10-01-2005, 11:27 AM

agreed, kinda. there are forces acting that you or jim have no idea about. some of which i simply alluded to in a manner i thought could be grasped by the many who read these forums. it would take much time and explanation for me to outline the reasons behind no % talks. this has reasoning first and foremost because the poker sites dont want it, which ultimately will affect my business. if they dont want it, and i rely on them, i dont want it.

i have no need to discuss these matters, and did so in hopes to present some of the issues present. i didnt want to moderate this forum with an iron fist and wanted to be able to openly discuss issues that are puzzling to many online poker players. so yes, my answer to jim is brief and flawed, but the basis for it is not, and is very real.

i see where this will go, and now this is a dead topic, any percentage talks will be deleted and i feel no obligation any longer to explain why, i tried, and it hasnt been received well.

morg.

RollaJ

10-01-2005, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
'we dont allow rakeback %'s for many reasons, most importantly, the sites dont allow it. lorinda may ask then, how do we offer it? the sites dont mind paying us within their structured tiers for the marketing we do for them. however, when affilaite XYZ(hypothetical example) starts offering 39% to his players, and that site only gives out 40%. the affiliates like myself, who have built a business around this, cant survive on a 1% profit margin. in time affilaite XYZ wont be able to survive either and eventually the players will be emailing affilaite XYZ asking where the past months payment is. if the market has raised rakeback % to 39%, i must then go negotiate with the pokersite to give me 45% so i can remain profitable and competitive. now the site is struggling to remain profitable and cant offer me 45%, then with the headaches and nonsense they must consider killing the rakeback market, which party did by removing the tracker reporting. in a long winded way, i am hoping some of you read this, and can understand that getting a 1/4th discount on your poker play is a pretty good deal. by bartering and trying to get more, this could potentially kill the market. hence our refusal to allow percentage talks. '

[/ QUOTE ]

Isnt this exactly how Walmart has become the worlds largest retailer?

jman220

10-01-2005, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Isnt this exactly how Walmart has become the worlds largest retailer?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow.

RollaJ

10-01-2005, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isnt this exactly how Walmart has become the worlds largest retailer?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the beginning Walmart made its name (and profit) by essentially fighting for the consumer. The go to the manufacturers and get the lowest possible price, then they get it lowered even more and pass the savings to the customer. They help manufacturers lower costs and thereby prices, and pass it on to the little guy. It is a very direct analogy as to what can be accomplished with the poker rooms.

[ QUOTE ]
Combined, we have generated tens of millions for poker sites and have given back over $4.3 million to our users

[/ QUOTE ]
1% aint all that bad, since it is recurring revenue with almost no cost after a customer is accquired

timprov

10-01-2005, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this has reasoning first and foremost because the poker sites dont want it

[/ QUOTE ]

Like many 2+2ers, you seem to be assuming that "sites" and "Party skins" are equivalent. There are plenty of sites that are quite happy to have rakeback discussed specifically.

morgant

10-01-2005, 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1% aint all that bad, since it is recurring revenue with almost no cost after a customer is accquired

[/ QUOTE ]

you are making statements with very little knowledge and imperfect information.

lorinda

10-01-2005, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
here is our initial thought process behind this forum.

we built this forum to be informative about rakeback, the process involved, how it works

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
you are making statements with very little knowledge and imperfect information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to fill the gaps for us?

Lori

morgant

10-01-2005, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
1% aint all that bad, since it is recurring revenue with almost no cost after a customer is accquired

you are making statements with very little knowledge and imperfect information.

[/ QUOTE ]

since you just took my quote out of context, i will put it back where it was. he referred to 1% as a sufficient cut. he is negelecting the costs of running a proper affilaite business. lawyers(so we dont get arrested, so the players will still receive this refund), accounts(same premise as lawyers), advertising, customer support people, tech people, shall i go on? or do you want to continue your myopic trolling?

gildwulf

10-01-2005, 01:28 PM

Please, won't someone think of the businesses! They have profit margins to keep...

Do the mods on this forum honestly think that if someone comes out with a 35% rakeback commercially that people aren't going to find out? Do the mods think that preventing discussion of rakeback percentages on one of dozens of major internet forums is going to actually do anything?

lorinda

10-01-2005, 01:28 PM

Trolling?

Yeah right, I've sent two PM's trying to help, with a couple of very simple ideas that won't cost you a customer , but would build your integrity.

I asked a question based on the fact you were rather rude to someone who thought 1% of $4 million was enough to live on and you didn't actually enlighten anyone as to the reasons why this was not the case.

Now you've answered the question, then good, perhaps you can tell me about the spirit of the promotion. Maybe you could get Empire to come on here and say that rakeback is fine so that those of us who worry about little things like legal disclaimers would feel better about thinking about claiming it.

Lori

morgant

10-01-2005, 01:38 PM

ok, i need to seperate myself from this. i knew this forum would be difficult to run. but i think its something that can prove very valuable to twoplustwo, its players, and my businesses.

as for legal disclaimers, as i said, i speak with them regularly and they have no qualms with the business i am running. they encourage it. maybe spirit vs. letter didnt apply, but i feel it does, i really dont want to waste time on semantical debate.

you have a valid concern with the empire issue, but they assure me its ok, like most legal disclaimers, they protect the writer of the contract to any and all extents. if you care to hear more, please PM me.

thanks
chris

lorinda

10-01-2005, 02:00 PM

I was kind enough to make this generic, I'm simply not that nasty.

Hi there support,

I was just having a discussion with an affiliate who says it is fine to give
rakeback to their customers at your site. They even said that you talk with
him regularly and encourage it.

However, reading your rules, I see the following:

"You shall not and shall not authorise, assist or encourage any third party
to:

3.2.9 offer any so-called "rake-back" schemes or similar which offers or
allows a proportion of the player's rake to be returned to the player in any
form; "

I'm curious as to why this person is telling me that it is fine to give
players rakeback when your site says it is far from fine.

Is there something we are not being told?

Thanks in advance

Lorinda

Their reply

Thank you for contacting us.

In response to your query, please note that we at our site do not have any rake back deal and also we do not allow any affiliate to
offer rake back program. Please note that it is only bonus that we offer at our site.

However, I would like to inform you that it is our Management and the Marketing team, which offers bonus to accounts by considering
various factors of an account. Whenever there is a bonus offered to your account, you would receive e-mail with complete details of
the same. Rest assured that our Marketing team would come up with many offers in future.

Lori

randomstumbl

10-01-2005, 05:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Stupid rule. That post is one of your most viewed. This is something people want to know and compare. I do understand you not wanting to have to compete based on percentage. Nice to have such self-serving moderators.

[/ QUOTE ]

On Amazon, many prices aren't shown until you add the item to the shopping cart because they're significantly lower than the suggested retail price. I assume this is as similar situation.

RollaJ

10-01-2005, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1% aint all that bad, since it is recurring revenue with almost no cost after a customer is accquired

[/ QUOTE ]

you are making statements with very little knowledge and imperfect information.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct I have incomplete information, and mediocre knowldge. that is why I was trying to ascertain what a top affiliate at a top site would get. I never said you should only get 1%, that is a figure you mentioned. The way I see it, RB should be a win-win situation for the affiliate and the player. That being said if an affiliate gets 40%, I dont feel 25% to the player is fair. Especially If I am generating close to $10,000 a month in rake. Sure it may be a pain for both sides, but if I can negotiate an extra 5-10% that makes a big difference to my bottom line and still leaves a nice chunk for the afiliate

NLSoldier

10-01-2005, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was kind enough to make this generic, I'm simply not that nasty.

Hi there support,

I was just having a discussion with an affiliate who says it is fine to give
rakeback to their customers at your site. They even said that you talk with
him regularly and encourage it.

However, reading your rules, I see the following:

"You shall not and shall not authorise, assist or encourage any third party
to:

3.2.9 offer any so-called "rake-back" schemes or similar which offers or
allows a proportion of the player's rake to be returned to the player in any
form; "

I'm curious as to why this person is telling me that it is fine to give
players rakeback when your site says it is far from fine.

Is there something we are not being told?

Thanks in advance

Lorinda

Their reply

Thank you for contacting us.

In response to your query, please note that we at our site do not have any rake back deal and also we do not allow any affiliate to
offer rake back program. Please note that it is only bonus that we offer at our site.

However, I would like to inform you that it is our Management and the Marketing team, which offers bonus to accounts by considering
various factors of an account. Whenever there is a bonus offered to your account, you would receive e-mail with complete details of
the same. Rest assured that our Marketing team would come up with many offers in future.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

TheNoodleMan

10-01-2005, 10:56 PM

PrincipalSkinner

10-02-2005, 06:47 AM

Come on guys, affiliates give us a lot of valuable services in return for their cut. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cincy Peach

10-02-2005, 11:14 AM

has anyone else noticed the irony here? Poker players getting upset because they are provided with incomplete information?

How about a nice game of chess?

Arnfinn Madsen

10-02-2005, 04:23 PM

I am assuming I am the best salesman posting on 2+2, and your strategy is a recipe for disaster, Morgant. Just some pieces of advice:

You do not have to actively provide information about better alternatives to the customer (higher unmentionables), it is the customer's responsibility to gather these. But leaving a feeling that you are trying to keep this information from the customer when the customer actively asks, gives the customer the feeling that your offer is not good enough to face competition.

Is rakeback a question of only getting highest unmentionables? No, definately not, you want to be assured that you will be paid accurate amount at the accurate time for a long future. Thus, most intelligent customers actually want an affiliate conscious enough to make a sustainable business model instead of going to the affiliate with the highest unmentionable.

You can win this battle if you put forward a reasonable explanation of how you/ your affiliates make a sustainable lasting business model, not by telling the customer: "Stupid customer, I have to protect you against the other offers, since there is something you don't understand."

morgant

10-02-2005, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ok, i need to seperate myself from this. i knew this forum would be difficult to run. but i think its something that can prove very valuable to twoplustwo, its players, and my businesses.

[/ QUOTE ]

i appreciate your comments. this forum is brand new and i assume there will be a strong learning curve for myself and my partners. we really intend to be hands off wrt the posts. i jumped the gun when i first saw the forum and the posts in it. anyways, what i quoted above is my firm belief and i think this forum is needed here on twoplustwo.

Freudian

10-02-2005, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
has anyone else noticed the irony here? Poker players getting upset because they are provided with incomplete information?

How about a nice game of chess?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as we would question a system of "mystery" rake where the poker room takes a non disclosed amount out of each pot, and you never know if you will pay $0.1 or $3 for a $10 pot.

Rakeback is a business agreement. Full disclosure makes complete sense.

uncleshady

10-02-2005, 10:36 PM

I dont see what the big deal is here? Somebody SPENDS their money to make an "affiliates forum", so in a sense this is THEIR forum. Either we live by their regulations or we dont post. Its not OUR forum, this forum has an agenda and it may be financial in some fashion, but there is little we can do about that. We didnt spend anything to make our own forum. I think this is definitely a "tough ****" situation. Its an unsaid fact that any RB deal is considered "under the table" on a Party skin. I hope nobody seriously contacted a poker site like that about rakeback...

Freudian

10-02-2005, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont see what the big deal is here? Somebody SPENDS their money to make an "affiliates forum", so in a sense this is THEIR forum. Either we live by their regulations or we dont post. Its not OUR forum, this forum has an agenda and it may be financial in some fashion, but there is little we can do about that. We didnt spend anything to make our own forum. I think this is definitely a "tough ****" situation. Its an unsaid fact that any RB deal is considered "under the table" on a Party skin. I hope nobody seriously contacted a poker site like that about rakeback...

[/ QUOTE ]

They are of course free to delete whatever they want on their paid forum, if that is their wish. But as long as this is a rakeback forum people will probably try to talk about rakeback.

I don't particularly care. I'm not shopping for rakeback and if I did I would probably wouldn't pick one that claimed I couldn't understand the advanced inner workings of rakeback.

uncleshady

10-02-2005, 11:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't particularly care. I'm not shopping for rakeback and if I did I would probably wouldn't pick one that claimed I couldn't understand the advanced inner workings of rakeback.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this sentiment, I wouldnt either. I suspect poker players of all people should be able to separate the wheat from the chaff and read between the lines in delicate situations such as this.

Piers

10-03-2005, 11:11 AM

Pretty much spot on.

I think there is a difference between removing Spam, and censorship for personal gain. Not that I particularly care one way or the other.

BusterStacks

10-03-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok, i need to seperate myself from this. i knew this forum would be difficult to run. but i think its something that can prove very valuable to twoplustwo, its players, and my businesses.

[/ QUOTE ]

i appreciate your comments. this forum is brand new and i assume there will be a strong learning curve for myself and my partners. we really intend to be hands off wrt the posts. i jumped the gun when i first saw the forum and the posts in it. anyways, what i quoted above is my firm belief and i think this forum is needed here on twoplustwo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is a tremendous conflict of interest here.

Sniper

10-04-2005, 10:49 AM

Wow.. A couple of days late in reading this forum, and I miss out on all the fun!

Morgan, I can't believe you called Lorinda, the 22nd member of 2+2 (and highly respected), a Troll.

My (and I'm sure many others here) level of respect for you and your business just took a dramatic drop!

Anyone who truly understands the affiliate business, knows that customer support is one of the most important aspects of the business... and you have just displayed a complete lack of understanding! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

threeonefour

10-04-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
jim, you may view this rule as stupid. but you dont have complete information. and are acting soley on yourself getting more money. if this practice is kept up for too long, rakeback will cease altogether. would you prefer 35% next month, then access to rakeback cut off, or 25% for the next 12? i have stickied a more thought out post on this topic. here is an excerpt;

'we dont allow rakeback %'s for many reasons, most importantly, the sites dont allow it. lorinda may ask then, how do we offer it? the sites dont mind paying us within their structured tiers for the marketing we do for them. however, when affilaite XYZ(hypothetical example) starts offering 39% to his players, and that site only gives out 40%. the affiliates like myself, who have built a business around this, cant survive on a 1% profit margin. in time affilaite XYZ wont be able to survive either and eventually the players will be emailing affilaite XYZ asking where the past months payment is. if the market has raised rakeback % to 39%, i must then go negotiate with the pokersite to give me 45% so i can remain profitable and competitive. now the site is struggling to remain profitable and cant offer me 45%, then with the headaches and nonsense they must consider killing the rakeback market, which party did by removing the tracker reporting. in a long winded way, i am hoping some of you read this, and can understand that getting a 1/4th discount on your poker play is a pretty good deal. by bartering and trying to get more, this could potentially kill the market. hence our refusal to allow percentage talks. '

[/ QUOTE ]

Suggested reading. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0130084611/qid=1128446386/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7248166-9120708?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

you are dead dead wrong. reducing the asymmetry of information will not destroy a market. it will make it more efficient. sometimes efficiency involves reducing the number of producers (the high cost ones). what you are really trying to say is "as an affiliate I want to make as much money as possible and if consumers are uninformed then it is easier to give them a deal that is more beneficial to me"

morgant

10-04-2005, 03:37 PM

i am passing on what is said to me by the poker sites. in addition to some of them that dont allow the direct quotation of percentages, they only these offers over the telephone. they make rules for me, i abide by them, this is one of them.

vilemerchant

10-05-2005, 06:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the affiliates like myself, who have built a business around this, cant survive on a 1% profit margin.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Survive? Jeezus what gives you the right to SURVIVE thru other people grinding their leather arses playing while you sit around spamming? You get out there and bonus whore your survival like the rest of us!

10-05-2005, 07:16 PM

I love how your story changes....first it was, you guys don't get it and you are only allowed a partial answer. I won't tell you anymore, even though you tore my initial arguement to shreds....now its....oh, I really just don't know guys....just be nice to me.

And thats a nice speech about how freemarkets destroy buisness sectors.

LoveDub

10-07-2005, 07:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I think there is a tremendous conflict of interest here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhuh. Internet bonus forum by Poker Source Online (only PSO spam allowed), this one by affiliateEV.com, what next? Computer Technical Help forum by Microsoft, and Linux posts are deleted? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

The issue is one of representation or (mis-). The title of the forum implies that generic discussion of affiliates and rakeback is welcome, when it should read "affiliateEV.com rakeback (only)".

bottomset

10-07-2005, 07:01 PM

there is no need for an affiliate/rb forum, if %'s stay hidden, seriously the only reason they don't allow it, is because they will lose customers who see how bad they are getting screwed over

[ QUOTE ]
if the market has raised rakeback % to 39%, i must then go negotiate with the pokersite to give me 45% so i can remain profitable and competitive

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but hiding the fact that you are getting 35-40 and only giving out 25 is pretty damn good for you