Hand eval help please.

[slavic]

I received calls of "here fishy fishy" for this play but I thought it was OK and I'm looking for a little constructive (or brutal relentless horsewipping) criticism.

PP .5/1 (yes I hate myself, 480 hands in this session)

Play was ok, 3 to 4 saw most flops, PF raises got some respect but 3 call stations normally stuck around for the flop anyway.

I'm sitting 1 in front of the button and have [A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ]

The board folds to me, against early limpers or a raise I would muck this hand but in 4 way action I like this hand a lot more and would normally raise. Unfortunatly the button and BB call everything so what is the point? I limp.

Button, calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop [T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ]

The SB (new to the table) bets out, I put him on a T or a 7 more likely a 7 first bet in a four way pot. The BB folds, I call with possibly 2 overcards and backdoor to a nut flush. The button folds.

Turn is [T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ]

The SB bet out again. Ok if he has a 7 the nine scares him, I have no reason to think he has an ace, so I likely have 17 to 19 outs because of the new 4 straight. Heads up that's not even odds, but if I can get hime to fold 1 in 8 times then why not? So I raise. He calls (well there goes thinking).

Flop is J /forums/images/icons/club.gif for the straight

check, bet, call

I show the straight, he mucks (log shows T /forums/images/icons/club.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif ) and then gets beligerant about the raise. I thought the raise was OK except if he had reraised, then I was way behind overcommited in the pot.

thoughts?

[Bob T.]

Preflop. I would open raise, even if they call with everything. You probably have the best hand, you may as well charge them to catch up.

Flop. Well, you didn't open raise, and you didn't hit the flop. The pot is tiny, and you got nothing. Fold.

Turn. You are a 1-2 underdog to win. From your description of EP, he isn't folding for 1 bet if he has anything. If you call, and you get one of your cards on the river, EP bets out, you can raise, and you get three bets in when you win, but it costs you one if you miss. If you raise here, and miss, you lose two bets when you miss, and get the same three bets when you win. Clearly, the 2/3 of the time that you miss, calling the turn, is going to be one bet better. Semibluff raising the turn, is only going to be a positive play, if there is some reasonable expectation that your opponent will lay their hand down to a raise at this point, and that clearly isn't the case with this opponent.

[SoBeDude]

The preflop call was loose. BUT if you felt you could get to the flop for only one bet then the call was fine.

The flop call was horrid. You have no odds to draw to a runner-runner. the flop missed you. one player already folded so the game is 3-way. Fold fold fold.

I think your opponent should have raised you with top two on the turn. that was a mistake. He should have made you pay to draw out on him.

On the turn you had fewer outs than you thought. Only the straight and flush outs were good for you. (15 total, 9 flush and 6 straight).

-Scott

[slavic]

Actually only 14, 1 of the flush draw makes a boat, for him.

[SoBeDude]

ack! good point.

[slavic]

Bob-
I really didn't know the SB at all. I thought I might be able to bluff him, and I witnessed a bluff from him so I wasn't convinced he had anything. As it turns out he should have taken me to the cleaners and I got lucky.

If the BB had stayed with him I would have folded. Your pre flop raise note is well taken. If an A had hit I would have cheated myself, and if a K had hit I could have bluffed the pot.

[Louie Landale]

The "point" of raising with a statistically good hand when stastically bad hands are going to call is that you build a pot as a favorite.

Yes, fold A8s to a raise but its a pretty good hand to play against callers, no matter how many or how few.

Pretty "fishy" flop call. Small pot, you missed, somebody likes it, there are no turn cards that give you a real good hand, you are not in last position, it may get raised, you have no idea what the bettor has, yaddy-yaddy. On the plus side, .. is .., well I don't see ANY redeeming characteristics of this situation. Yeah, you ASKED for "brutal" and deserved it, but I gave it pretty soft anyway.

BTW, the main reason NOT to raise with A8s PF in that spot is so you can easily get away from it ON the flop. Go figure.

Great turn raise for the reason's you gave. But you really need to target your player first. Some players NEVER fold a hand worth betting, and it sure is nice to know which ones those are.

Dare I suggest [1] Your brain, like most others, goes to mush before 400 hands. [2] You take critism litterally. No, the player is just mouthing off after losing a hand. And he doesn't understand such raises.

Which leads me to this: try to LEARN something, in this case the player is never going to semi-bluff raise on the turn, since he doesn't believe in it.

- Louie

Are you sure "Fishy Fishy" was for the raise and not for the call?

[slavic]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Dare I suggest [1] Your brain, like most others, goes to mush before 400 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your correct, I was worn out. It takes a lot to sit through that many hands and concentrate on all the aspects of the game. After the next hand when I left I was exhausted.