The most obvious bet-fold ever? Why can I not make this play? [Archive]

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10-01-2005, 03:14 AM

Villain is weak tight and passive postflop. As usual I am total maniac/LAG, although I have been fairly quiet for a few orbits now.

I see him raising a 5, a PP, a 9 or a fd (He tries this with gs <1%). I am checking the turn with the intention of folding to a bet, but when he doesnt I see him on the flush, the 5 or the PP.

The turn comes and I hit. Obviously if it gets checked through I lose a bet to his pacified 5 or PP, but if I bet those hands arent raising. If i bet and he raises of course he has hit his flush and I must fold. Its almost like a textbook example of "When to use the bet-fold line?".

And yet I still can't do it. I think I agreed a lot with the post that was made on tilt and self-defeating lines. Like, I just need to see his hand in order to avoid thinking about the hand down the line and 'what could have been'.

Is this just part of learning curve? Or is everyone else able to consistently make this play?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (5 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls WHEN HE SHOULD FOLD.

Final Pot: 9 BB

10-01-2005, 03:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is weak tight and passive postflop. As usual I am total maniac/LAG, although I have been fairly quiet for a few orbits now.

I see him raising a 5, a PP, a 9 or a fd (He tries this with gs <1%). I am checking the turn with the intention of folding to a bet, but when he doesnt I see him on the flush, the 5 or the PP.

The turn comes and I hit. Obviously if it gets checked through I lose a bet to his pacified 5 or PP, but if I bet those hands arent raising. If i bet and he raises of course he has hit his flush and I must fold. Its almost like a textbook example of "When to use the bet-fold line?".

And yet I still can't do it. I think I agreed a lot with the post that was made on tilt and self-defeating lines. Like, I just need to see his hand in order to avoid thinking about the hand down the line and 'what could have been'.

Is this just part of learning curve? Or is everyone else able to consistently make this play?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (5 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls WHEN HE SHOULD FOLD.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I typically don't bet-fold at these limits. The players are too random and could easily be raising an ace here. In this hand if you read the guy as weak tight I think the bet fold is probably ok though.

10-01-2005, 03:23 AM

Come down to your read on the guy here IMO.

If you have a solid read as Tight passvie I think you need to lay this down.

benkath1

10-01-2005, 10:34 AM

Why do you think you should fold the river raise?

Why bet the river, if you're gonna fold?

McGahee

10-01-2005, 10:43 AM

Meh, I disagree on both counts. Generally speaking, people at these limits don't bet/fold enough IMO.
As far as this hand, I'm definitely calling. There's no way he has a 9. Frequently he'll have a flush, but he has just an Ace (1 in 8 times) often enough to call.

Redd

10-01-2005, 10:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why can I not make this play?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this play is applicable much less often at the microlimits than even the SS tables.

10-01-2005, 11:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think you should fold the river raise?

Why bet the river, if you're gonna fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to make a post saying pretty much the same thing. Of course I would have used more words and generally just rabbled on for no apparant reason. But there's no point now, is there?

10-01-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think you should fold the river raise?

Why bet the river, if you're gonna fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to make a post saying pretty much the same thing. Of course I would have used more words and generally just rabbled on for no apparant reason. But there's no point now, is there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rabbled? I meant ramble...

although now that I review, maybe rabbled is better after all... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

livinitup0

10-01-2005, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is weak tight and passive postflop. As usual I am total maniac/LAG, although I have been fairly quiet for a few orbits now.

I see him raising a 5, a PP, a 9 or a fd (He tries this with gs <1%). I am checking the turn with the intention of folding to a bet, but when he doesnt I see him on the flush, the 5 or the PP.

The turn comes and I hit. Obviously if it gets checked through I lose a bet to his pacified 5 or PP, but if I bet those hands arent raising. If i bet and he raises of course he has hit his flush and I must fold. Its almost like a textbook example of "When to use the bet-fold line?".

And yet I still can't do it. I think I agreed a lot with the post that was made on tilt and self-defeating lines. Like, I just need to see his hand in order to avoid thinking about the hand down the line and 'what could have been'.

Is this just part of learning curve? Or is everyone else able to consistently make this play?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: (5 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls WHEN HE SHOULD FOLD.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

You cant make this play because you shouldnt. At worst this is a check/call. I would bet/call.
I highly doubt he's going to "double check raise"
EDIT: but then again if you're as laggy as you say I may try it and laugh when it works.

Rev. Good Will

10-01-2005, 12:36 PM

I like C/C'ing the river much better cause I think villian will have that range of hands you mentioned and beat(a 5 or PP) more than 1/6th of the time

Russ McGinley

10-01-2005, 12:42 PM

It's also possible that subconsciously you said to yourself "An ace! Just what I was looking for! Bet!" because its the heat of the moment and such. But yeah, the only hand you beat here is A5 or some ridiculous straight draw that won't call on the end anyway (or KK-TT). I like the c/c line. Once he checks the turn, you gotta put him on a flush draw.

Fryguy

10-02-2005, 12:02 AM

I check-call this river every day and twice on sunday.