How do you handle a mini-raise with TPTK?

[Garland]

Villian is tighter than I am (that is very difficult in itself). Over 1151 hands, his stats are:

14.60 VP$IP, 1.48 PF Raise %. Despite being tight, in the time I played him, he seems to be a loser, not making correct plays, too passive when he needs to be more aggressive, etc. On the short term, he's at -8.42 BB/100 hands, but I have a feeling the long term doesn't look too bright for him too. Anyhow, on to the hand:

What's your play?

Garland

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($600)
UTG+1 ($616.90)
UTG+2 ($742.75)
MP1 ($687.30)
MP2 ($635.10)
MP3 ($469.95)
CO ($368.95)
Button ($349.39)
Garland ($1022.75)
BB ($663.90)

Preflop: Garland is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Garland posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls $6, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls $6, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $6, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Garland (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($30) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Garland bets $22</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $44</font>...

[GoCubsGo]

Some people like to min-raise with a flush draw because it disguises the hand. He could be doing this, but I don't think it's worth it to find out without ever seeing him make this move previously. 1.48 PFR means he probably limps QQ, right? Then you're dominated to 44, 55, and QQ and currently ahead of a flush draw. I think a fold is correct against a very tight player like this.

[djoyce003]

he's super tight and not aggro....you are behind. He's not semi-bluffing here...he's got a set.

you bet to see where he is at. you said he was playing passive in this session then i think your hand has to hit the muck it screams 44 or 55 to me. kick it in a take your 28 dollar loss not that much to a tight player who has postion on you facing a reraise.

[iceman5]

Looks like a set miner to me. People who min raise with a flush draw usually do it in position. People who do it out of position have sets most of the time.
Fold.

[rwperu34]

This particular mini raise I am going to handle with a fold. I'd probably check the flop as well.

[muzungu]

Bah, these replies suck.

OK, so he is super tight-passive preflop, so there is a decent chance he has a set. But:

1. Your hand is toward the upper end of your hand range here. Villain could have KJ/etc and be confident he is ahead.

2. You are getting over 4:1 on your call here, that is a pretty good price.

3. It is entirely consistent for a nitty player to minraise with TP or a flush draw here. They are not doing it as an aggressive move, but rather to "see where they are at" for cheap (edit: and to knock out the guys behind them) and to have the option of checking behind the turn.

So, I call the flop, check the turn, and see what they do. I am folding to most bets, but I think they will be checking behind a fair % of the time (in which case you are probably winning). I might call a small bet if I make the read that they are trying to get a free showdown. I don't think this is close- even vs this opponent, folding here is giving up way too easily.

-muz

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain could have KJ/etc and be confident he is ahead

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree: no nit who plays only 14.6% VP$IP is limping UTG with KJ, suited or not.

Garland

[deadmoney98]

I hate folding to min raises. It just sucks. But what hand is he playing this way that you are beating?

[dibbs]

I'm looking for a similar hand where the villian isn't insane but doesn't squeak either, I think that would be an interesting discussion as well, but I can't find one. I remember these situations being discussed on here before though, but my archives are a mess.

Not creative really, but with this guy I like fold, KJs seems a little frisky for him UTG, no? Can't see KQcc or a connector here either.

[Krytemaster]

Generally in these kinds of situations I think it is a very weak play to give up this easily, and I thnik muzungu´s reasoning was good. I think you will be up against jacks with worse kickers quite sometimes and draws as well or even a pocket pair lower than jacks, 66-TT. There are far too many hands that you beat to fold here.

However if this player is extremely tight passive as you describe him, then in this very particular hand a fold might be in order, because you don´t want to build a pot in this situation. But generally (against very tight players as well) I think a call on the flop to see what he does on turn is the best play.

Krytemaster

[Lucky]

You know it's a fold against this guy, but you can rationalize a call if you like.

How about against aggressive players who do this with a wide variety of holdings? This actual situation comes up HEAPS. I play live and people will often minraise tpgk or tpbk or whatever. So eg hand:

Villian is bad, aggressive, and playing with about 75 bb behind. You raise preflop with AK, they call, flop comes down K high, bet 3/4-pot, they minraise, your move?

I used to always fold here btw but am consistantly finding reasons to play that are profitable depending on players, one line includes calling the raise then leading a second time.

[Kirkrrr]

I am not quite ready to give up on this yet... call the flop, see what he does on the turn. I general, against very weak-tight, passive opponents you will be able to outplay them on later streets often enough to make the flop call profitable. If he's got a set he'll let you know on the turn.

Kirk

[Gregg777]

I can't understand why several posters are advocating a call. This is a super weak tight passive nit at $600NL who has minraised a J high flush draw flop.

Like Lucky said, you can rationalize a call all you want, but long term, this play is -EV at $600NL against this type of player.

If you want to out think someone, at least find a player who makes moves.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

this is exaxtly the reason why you check this flop.

[2PAUL2]

this has been said twice. can someone outline the reasons why and line for the rest of the hand.

paul

[Kirkrrr]

I don't see that as a great idea. Here's the gameplan: you check the flop, the tighty bets, you... fold? ...Call, having no idea of where you're at? Check-raise?
I honestly can't think of a single good reason to check this flop except "you can't lose what you don't put in the middle."

Kirk

[ryanghall]

I should note that with a PFR that low, QQ isn't the only overpair he may have. Those guys like to limp-reraise or even limp-call w/ KK/AA, as well.

Ryan

[Imperial]

I fold this preflop. To tight???

[bigt2k4]

jacks with a worse kicker... u think a tight player plays KJ UTG??? ur beat, @ least give him the benefit of the doubt, chances are u are drawing almost dead.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]

I fold this preflop. To tight???

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding for half a bet in a limped pot where I have decent hand out of the SB? I'd say so...

Garland

[Garland]

I folded.

Here's some ideas I got:

This guy is a supernit, and at this point is likely to have JJ, 44 or 55 for the mini-raise. He's not raising his flush draw, ever. He might even have AA, KK or QQ here.

Muzungu mentions 4:1 odds, and in the past I used to rationalize that into a call but realized against this type of opponent, it's giving away money as I'm forced to fold to the big turn bet about every time.

There is no turn card in the deck that will both improve my situation and make me feel secure. In other words, I only have a backdoor straight draw, and if I turn an A or a J, then what? I'm likely seduced into spewing more money vs the set/boat. I strongly feel you have to have a plan with different turn cards.

A couple of posters mentioned checking the flop. And for what? I see no reason not to test the waters and see where I'm at. I certainly don't want to check it around and see a K, Q or club on the turn or give an underpair a free shot to set me. TPTK is a strong hand, and I need to lead with my good/ok hands as well as my monsters in order to get action when I actually want it.

One of the golden rules of NL: Don't pay off a rock!

Thanks for all your comments.

Garland

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
this is exaxtly the reason why you check this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm.. cdc, i could see an argument for checking the flop, but being afraid of a minraise from a big super nit isnt one of them

[fsuplayer]

routinely checking a flop like this sucks.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold this preflop. To tight???

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes #1.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
routinely checking a flop like this sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes #2.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see that as a great idea. Here's the gameplan: you check the flop, the tighty bets, you... fold? ...Call, having no idea of where you're at? Check-raise?
I honestly can't think of a single good reason to check this flop except "you can't lose what you don't put in the middle."

Kirk

[/ QUOTE ]

okay how about this. you bet the flop and get called by a super tight nit. what do you do on the turn?

you bet the flop you get called in multiple spots. what do you do on the turn?

you bet the flop and get played back at. what do you do there?

i'm not totally against betting this flop, in fact i bet it sometimes, but building pots out of position in an unraised pot isn't exactly my cup of tea.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]


i'm not totally against betting this flop, in fact i bet it sometimes, but building pots out of position in an unraised pot isn't exactly my cup of tea.

[/ QUOTE ]

cdc i see exactly what you mean, and by no means is this an easy auto flop bet, but...

the expression (and I use it alot, too) "building pot out of position" is a bit of a misnomer, no? I mean... A bet if called ,sure, it makes pot size bigger. But everytime you flop tptk or worse do you just pray you check and have it checked down? No...

I bet, and sure, it may "build the pot," but it also may win the pot, which is cool with me.

plus, in this situation, if you DO get played back by the super nit, it's not a tough decision; fold is (you can rest assured here) nearly always optimal. If someone else plays back at you, well, maybe you'll build a big pot, but one that you'll end up winning.