A NL600 hand... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Garland

09-30-2005, 10:28 PM

It's been awhile since I posted a hand. I've been playing more poker in the last couple of weeks, but I guess the more I play, the more I can handle what were formally difficult decisions.

Anyhow, limited data on the the villian but he seems loose:

40.37 VP$IP, 12.84 PF Raise% over 109 hands.

I don't know too much about his play.

I have the usual tight image going for me.

Comments?

Garland

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Garland (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 ($605.25)
UTG+2 ($572)
MP1 ($777.75)
MP2 ($736.30)
MP3 ($640.60)
CO ($459.45)
Button ($614)
SB ($382.39)
Garland ($648.95)
UTG ($701.70)

Preflop: Garland is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $6, 3 folds, MP3 calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, Garland checks.

Flop: ($33) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Garland bets $23, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls $23, CO folds, Button calls $23.

Turn: ($102) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Garland checks, MP3 checks, Button bets $45, Garland calls $45, MP3 folds.

River: ($192) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Garland checks...

ahnuld

09-30-2005, 11:45 PM

Meh, I like a lead on the river. Villan bet really weak on the turn, and was just testing if you had an A or better. He checks behind most aces here, although he might pay pff a CR if he has two pair. However, if you bet pot on river, aces up definitly call and a set or lower pair probably raise, so I think leading river for pot is a better line.

edge

09-30-2005, 11:59 PM

I think I play three out of four streets differently here. I'd make it about 45 preflop to try and take it down. Leading the flop is cool. When I pick up the extra flush outs on the turn, I like to keep jamming and bet again. On the river, if I bet the flop and turn, I'm going to fire again.

I think even given the preflop check, leading all three streets is better. Your equity on the turn has to be good enough to warrant putting a lot more in than a check/call half-pot bet, and betting the turn lets you bet the river flush without looking weird.

MHoydilla

10-01-2005, 01:26 AM

I think the way you played it preflop you should raise the turn instead of calling. I think you should be raising out of the BB with your AQs after 4 callers most of the time.

BobboFitos

10-01-2005, 01:34 AM

I play full handed maybe all the streets the same way... I like OP's line. Edge, dunno why you are so against it

Raising out of bb w/ AQs, yeah, sure, sometimes. Ok, fine. That is slightly debateable but no the crux of the hand. Lead out w/ TP into field, flop is good. Better then checking with the intention of folding (wtf so weak!) or raising (building big pot oop with top pair) and calling (although sometimes I would toy with a check call on this type of board...).

Anyway, I like turn, no need to blow yourself off your hand, no need to blow them off hands w/ 2 outs like smaller aces not tainting your diamond... it's a reverse pot control -> see the river w/ a live draw. In fact betting is not standard for me... If it goes c/c I'll bet what I think a weak tightie type would call w/ top pair worse kicker, if he bets I'll either block a non diamond or Q or A and on those cards I'm not sure, maybe still block etc. but hitting the nuts this seems like such a nice spot to riv c/r...

It's unlikely he has a bluff, but if he does, you give him the chance to fire another shell. (like a call to bluff betting the turn, putting you on a weak ace that cant call a river bet) If he has a set he'll pay off a c/r all in anyway (he may raise a bet with one so money probably gets all in) He'll value bet 2pair or call a bet, so it's pretty borderline.

If someone has a strong top pair you dont think they value bet? I would put the BB on a top pair that he's trying to showdown (lead flop, CHECK CALL, CHECK ? riv...) and milk it for what it's worth.

Actually, given all this maybe just leading the river and allowing a set to raise is best, but the riv check is crafty. Other streets played well.

Kirkrrr

10-01-2005, 07:54 AM

Standard, no?

Kirk

emil3000

10-01-2005, 08:22 AM

Only street that I am unsure of is the river. I do think he checks behind here a lot. His turn bet seemed really weak.

Gregg777

10-01-2005, 08:26 AM

With AQs in the BB, I don't mind the call pre flop and smallish river bet.

The way you played it I would raise the turn back for another $45. The only reasonable hand to worry about is AJ.

Whatever villain has, he will call the turn raise, and if by some odd chance you are behind, you have plenty of outs.

If the diamond hits, lead out with a "blocking" bet of $150 ($280 in pot at that point). If a diamond doesn't hit, you can check and call a reasonable bet.

10-01-2005, 09:36 AM

The hand was played out fine, but you missed the opportunity I think to extract optimal value here. I would always fire out a weak bet here. Even quarter to a third of the pot and let the guy hang himself if he wants to bluff or if he made a flush too.

His hand I see as a weaker ace that wants a show down.

ryanghall

10-01-2005, 11:24 AM

Anyone like a check-call on the flop and a turn lead here?

10-01-2005, 11:36 AM

Because you hate getting paid off when the flush hits?

I check/call again.

River I either hope to c/r or make a weak bet that can be interpreted as a 'blocker'. Generally my style is to bet it weak and hope to induce a bluff. The only hand that I would value bet behind is AJ. Even AK (I think) is a clear check behind.

Kirkrrr

10-01-2005, 11:36 AM

Was browsing on my phone and didn't see the suits, your flush on river was therefore a revelation.

The river check is definitely bad. He'll check behind here the majority of the time. Value bet it for 1/3 - half-pot, and I prefer half-pot since most of my bluffs are half-pot bets so it disguises that. But that's just me, of course.

Kirk

ryanghall

10-01-2005, 12:08 PM

My post was referring to planning to check-call flop and lead turn after the flop hits. I don't think that you can assume that runner-runner flush will happen when you're at the flop. I think the flop play is probably the most important street. I hate leading out OOP with hands like this in 5way pots. You're in a difficult situation when raised. By check-calling flop and leading turn, after the turn you usually know exactly where you are at and it also confuses your opponent.

Ryan

10-01-2005, 12:50 PM

I see no value here in leading the turn.

If the player isn't comfortable with A Q on a A J rag board, he could c/r to find out where he is at - a call or raise from the villain equals immediate shut down. As it is, the turn gave 9 outs to the nuts even if we're not good now. We want to encourage a weaker ace to keep betting and we're not going away now to anything short of a big overbet given that we have 12 outs assuming villain having AJ. A check/call here disguises our flush draw and you're far more likely to get paid off if the flush hits. Personally I would raise it or even push if hero bets on the 4d assuming there my stack is deep enough to have FE. There is nothing else the hero or anyone else can put us on other than two pair or a set betting to protect. The only hand that can call is a slowplayed AA or JJ imo. I would fold AK.

amoeba

10-01-2005, 01:00 PM

your answer doesnt address the question, which is whether it is better to check call the flop with AQ on a drawless flop.

I like the check call. if you bet out on the flop and get raised, you have no idea if they are doing it with A good kicker like AT or aces up. you find your hand too big to fold so you call the raise and you are confused for rest of the hand.

10-01-2005, 01:24 PM

I'd probably check/minimum raise or flat out make a 3/4 pot bet for information if I've no clue of his possible hand and if you know it's going to be expensive to see a showdown (i.e. other player is very aggressive). A call or raise and it's easy to slowdown or fold either right now or on future streets. With AQ, the only ace that could fire out a bet and that I'm beating is A10 and unless that player is observed as a very bad LAG I cannot assume I'm good here and I fold to a re-raise.

In a live game it might be different depending on your read of the player.

Garland

10-01-2005, 01:39 PM

Results to come soon...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Garland (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 ($605.25)
UTG+2 ($572)
MP1 ($777.75)
MP2 ($736.30)
MP3 ($640.60)
CO ($459.45)
Button ($614)
SB ($382.39)
Garland ($648.95)
UTG ($701.70)

Preflop: Garland is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $6, 3 folds, MP3 calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, Garland checks.

Flop: ($33) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Garland bets $23, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls $23, CO folds, Button calls $23.

Turn: ($102) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Garland checks, MP3 checks, Button bets $45, Garland calls $45, MP3 folds.

River: ($192) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Garland checks, Button bets $40, Garland raises to $200...

Garland

10-01-2005, 07:44 PM

Thanks for the interesting comments. Here's a blow-by-blow account of my thoughts:

Pre-flop: AQs...yeah a powerful hand, but several factors swayed me against a raise here.

(1) UTG+1 was a nit. 14.6 VP$IP from another hand I posted earlier. nit player hand from earlier (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3545094&page=0&view=e xpanded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=) I was very unlikely to buy the pot outright with him limping under the gun as he's very likely holding a pocket pair. Although this guy is normally very passive, I couldn't discount the small possibility that he would limp re-reraise. Once he calls, it's likely to cause a chain reaction of calls that gets 5 players in with a swelled pot. Not the desired result I want.
(2) If I flop a draw, like a gutshot or a flush draw, I'd like to keep the price small.
(3) I just like to mix it up from time to time. I will raise if I feel the opportunity was right. This time was not it.

Flop: Pretty good for my pretty well-concealed hand. Top pair with a good kicker and a backdoor flush draw. Let's bet and see what's out there.

Turn: A diamond. Perfect time to check. Why? As some have mentioned, I don't want to get blown off the live nut flush draw. If I lead and get raised big, I would have regret betting in the first place as my cards hit the muck. In addition, my hand is well-concealed for the river if I should hit. If it checks around, no big disaster really as the free river is more likely to help me than hurt. It's like what I do when I'm in position and turn a live draw...I check and don't allow a check-raise to ruin me.

Note: the turn made my opponent the nut wheel, and leading would have been disaster should he decide to raise big.

River: My thoughts are how to get the most into the pot. If I lead big, and he has a weak A, he may not call. If he's bluffing, I'm getting free money. If he has two pair, set or lower flush, he's certainly going to bet for value anyways. So I decided to check and he walked right into my trap, thought for 30 seconds or so and decided to call (I think he was deciding whether or not to reraise all-in, but thought better of it). He bet the turn and river so small, I was wondering about the true strength of his hand. The only question was if I should I have pushed or raised more. I tried to make it look like a possible bluff that a weaker hand could possibiliy call. I think $240 is a more appropriate price now though. I think based on his passive betting, if I lead on the river, he'd be afraid to raise anything but a flush with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gifs showing.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Garland

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Garland (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($605.25)
UTG+2 ($572)
MP1 ($777.75)
MP2 ($736.30)
MP3 ($640.60)
CO ($459.45)
Button ($614)
SB ($382.39)
Garland ($648.95)
UTG ($701.70)

Preflop: Garland is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $6, 3 folds, MP3 calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, Garland checks.

Flop: ($33) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
Garland bets $23, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls $23, CO folds, Button calls $23.

Turn: ($102) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Garland checks, MP3 checks, Button bets $45, Garland calls $45, MP3 folds.

River: ($192) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Garland checks, Button bets $40, Garland raises to $200, Button calls $160.

Final Pot: $592
Main Pot: $592, between Button and Garland. > Pot won by Garland ($592).

Results below:
Garland has Ad Qd (flush, ace high).
Button has 3h 5c (straight, six high).
Outcome: Garland wins $592.

kagame

10-02-2005, 01:46 AM

your river play is lame

-Skeme-

10-02-2005, 09:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
your river play is lame

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeah. I see too many hands checking behind. I like a river lead.

gol4pro

10-02-2005, 10:06 AM

Add him to your buddy list.

Kirkrrr

10-03-2005, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
River: ($192) 6 (2 players)
Garland checks, Button bets $40, Garland raises to $200, Button calls $160.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if...

River: ($192) 6 (2 players)
Garland bets 100, Button raises to $200, Garland raises to $750, Button calls $550.

Your analysis is very interesting and definitely valid, but I think you truly outthunk yourself on this one.

Kirk

swarm

10-03-2005, 02:08 PM

No way I check that river... the small bet on the turn is usually nothing or a really strong hand like a set looking to get raised. Either scenario it's better to lead the river for 1/2 the pot on the river and hope villan raises.

Villan is obviously an ass as that turn bet is dreadful. However, if you would have led that flop you would have most likely got all in on the river since he hit his "well concealed" straight in his mind. Players never want to put the flop aggressor on a backdoor flush.

jetsg4

10-03-2005, 02:31 PM

i like every street except river.. i 1/2 to 3/4 pot river, most likely 3/4