AQ hand - is this standard?

[Duffman]

Just sat down so no reads.

SB is 40/13 over 40 hands
MP2 is 26/6 over 40 hands

I didn't take these stats too seriously because it's only 40 hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

I didn't want to raise because I'm out of position here. Should I?

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[thesharpie]

Don't see much point in raising apart from maybe clearing up some outs, but you might not get him to fold anyway and there's a good chance you're up against an overpair that's going to 3 bet. I peel. Call the turn, if he has something like KK you have up to 10 outs.

Edit: Maybe folding the flop is best I'll have to look deeper later.

[benkath1]

That was a crazy game of poker you just played.

I 3 bet an open raiser with AQo in the BB all day long.

I don't know what you were doing on the flop. You have a gutshot and a back door flush draw. I don't think raising is the best play.

[Duffman]

I raised to try to get MP out.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
I raised to try to get MP out.

[/ QUOTE ]

But MP has already shown aggression preflop. With no reads, and a raggedy flop, did you think he would fold?

[ QUOTE ]
That was a crazy game of poker you just played.

I 3 bet an open raiser with AQo in the BB all day long.

I don't know what you were doing on the flop. You have a gutshot and a back door flush draw. I don't think raising is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]



He had around 10 outs on the flop and 8sb's in the pot...he easily has the odds to call, do you not think raising is a good move here to try and force the preflop raiser out ? I do, but then I'm a n00b /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I like the play so far and think you JUST ABOUT have the odds to call on the turn.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was a crazy game of poker you just played.

I 3 bet an open raiser with AQo in the BB all day long.

I don't know what you were doing on the flop. You have a gutshot and a back door flush draw. I don't think raising is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]



He had around 10 outs on the flop and 8sb's in the pot...he easily has the odds to call, do you not think raising is a good move here to try and force the preflop raiser out ? I do, but then I'm a n00b /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I like the play so far and think you JUST ABOUT have the odds to call on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are still drawing though. Why raise and have MP 3-bet and blow out SB?

[thesharpie]

yea peel teh flop.

[Yerma]

I think you have to call and see the river. Your Ace and maybe even your Queen could well be outs. Your gutshot should be good for the whole pot most of the time. You're getting good enough odds to see a river.

If you hit the Ace or your gutshot, I would donk the river. The Queen is good for a check-call imho. But I wouldn't call a river bet without improvement.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was a crazy game of poker you just played.

I 3 bet an open raiser with AQo in the BB all day long.

I don't know what you were doing on the flop. You have a gutshot and a back door flush draw. I don't think raising is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]



He had around 10 outs on the flop and 8sb's in the pot...he easily has the odds to call, do you not think raising is a good move here to try and force the preflop raiser out ? I do, but then I'm a n00b /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I like the play so far and think you JUST ABOUT have the odds to call on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are still drawing though. Why raise and have MP 3-bet and blow out SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK so the fact he's shown agression puts you off raising. I'm guessing you would raise if he just limped preflop ?

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't see much point in raising apart from maybe clearing up some outs, but you might not get him to fold anyway and there's a good chance you're up against an overpair that's going to 3 bet. I peel. Call the turn, if he has something like KK you have up to 10 outs.

Edit: Maybe folding the flop is best I'll have to look deeper later.

[/ QUOTE ]

somebody want to enlighten me on how we calculated TEN outs?

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was a crazy game of poker you just played.

I 3 bet an open raiser with AQo in the BB all day long.

I don't know what you were doing on the flop. You have a gutshot and a back door flush draw. I don't think raising is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]



He had around 10 outs on the flop and 8sb's in the pot...he easily has the odds to call, do you not think raising is a good move here to try and force the preflop raiser out ? I do, but then I'm a n00b /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I like the play so far and think you JUST ABOUT have the odds to call on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are still drawing though. Why raise and have MP 3-bet and blow out SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK so the fact he's shown agression puts you off raising. I'm guessing you would raise if he just limped preflop ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Him raising preflop, doesn't change the fact that I 3-bet before the flop. But him raising preflop makes me more inclined to call after the flop. If I had 3=bet preflop, then you might raise this flop to represent a bigger hand, but the way this was played, I don't like the raise.

just my .02

[Duffman]

The flop raise is almost automatic for me with AK and AQ, I'm gonna be more selective now.

If the flop was all diamonds, the raise would be good?

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop raise is almost automatic for me with AK and AQ, I'm gonna be more selective now.

If the flop was all diamonds, the raise would be good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, now you're getting somewhere. That's tough for the same reasons. With MP raising preflop, I'd be inclined to call sb's donk bet and let mp raise, then sb is only faced with one more and you can either raise then, or wait and see the turn. If the turn completes your flush, then I think a donk bet is in order, as MP might smell a fish and check the turn through.

[TBone]

Yes, you should raise preflop. You almost certainly have the best hand. The hand becomes much easier to play postflop when you raise preflop. You've taken control of the hand by raising preflop.

This is a very draw heavy flop. SB probably does not bet into you if you raise preflop. You can then make a continuation bet on the flop, hoping to get at least one fold, betting your overcards and gutshot. The problem with raising the flop when you have big cards is noone thinks you have big cards because you didn't raise preflop. So, your raise here is really serving no real purpose, (other than costing you more money) especially on such a draw heavy board when you yourself are drawing to less outs than the villians.

Playing big cards passively preflop is not a good way to make money at micro limit poker.

T

[TBone]

The ten outs come from 4 4's to make his gutshot, 3 queens and 3 aces. I personally, don't think he's got ten outs though. Given the action, I'm thinking MP may have a set or already have the straght. 3-betting is a pretty strong move. One of the villians could also have a flush draw. Does hitting the gutshot ship you the entire pot or are you chopping with someone else? Ten outs is a very liberal calculation IMO.

T

[ QUOTE ]

somebody want to enlighten me on how we calculated TEN outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I calculated approx 10 on the flop.

Four 4's = 4 outs
BD FD = 1.5
Three A's = 3 outs
Three Q's = 1.5 outs (assuming partial outs since we could be up against KK here)


Peace.

[Mathieu]

I play it the same preflop.

I like the flop raise. sb could be betting a flush draw or a small pp, and raising could buy you outs if you can push out MP2. There is also a decent chance that you have the best hand, and if you don't you may have up to 11.5 outs.

I really don't like the turn fold. You probably have 7-10 outs here and you are getting 7.5-1. Folding is a big mistake.

[Mathieu]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you should raise preflop. You almost certainly have the best hand. The hand becomes much easier to play postflop when you raise preflop. You've taken control of the hand by raising preflop.

This is a very draw heavy flop. SB probably does not bet into you if you raise preflop. You can then make a continuation bet on the flop, hoping to get at least one fold, betting your overcards and gutshot. The problem with raising the flop when you have big cards is noone thinks you have big cards because you didn't raise preflop. So, your raise here is really serving no real purpose, (other than costing you more money) especially on such a draw heavy board when you yourself are drawing to less outs than the villians.

Playing big cards passively preflop is not a good way to make money at micro limit poker.

T

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't like 3 betting preflop in this spot. MP2 may be raising with a wide range, and he may not. People at this limit don't necessarily widen their range from this position so AQ may not have such an equity edge to warrant a reraise.

Raising the flop has a purpose since our draw loses value if we have to split the pot with another Ace when we hit our gutshot.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you should raise preflop. You almost certainly have the best hand. The hand becomes much easier to play postflop when you raise preflop. You've taken control of the hand by raising preflop.

This is a very draw heavy flop. SB probably does not bet into you if you raise preflop. You can then make a continuation bet on the flop, hoping to get at least one fold, betting your overcards and gutshot. The problem with raising the flop when you have big cards is noone thinks you have big cards because you didn't raise preflop. So, your raise here is really serving no real purpose, (other than costing you more money) especially on such a draw heavy board when you yourself are drawing to less outs than the villians.

Playing big cards passively preflop is not a good way to make money at micro limit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm reluctant to play agressively with AQ out of position vs pre-flop raiser. I think 3 betting here makes this hand harder to play because in order to maintain control of the hand you need to continue playing agressively. No point getting one person to fold with the continuation flop bet if the remaining oponent is just going to passively call down with a pair of 10's.

I think it's easier to just calculate your odds and call it down, folding the river UI (or calling depending on your read). There's no way of your opponent putting you on some kind of hand that way and you set him up for a check-raise if you hit.