Weak? 2/4

[Chaostracize]

It's like the 15th hand. I haven't played one yet.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero ($378)
MP ($187)
CO ($337.40)
Button ($251.07)
SB ($503.50)
BB ($628.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $12, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $8.

Flop: ($38) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $25</font>, CO calls $25, BB folds.

Turn: ($88) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $65</font>, CO calls $65.

River: ($218) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $125</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $343

Should I be blocking this river? $90?

[Big_Jim]

Bet more on flop, more on turn. Board is very draw heavy, and your hand is vulnerable.

Ugly river card...

Blocking bet is bad since no worse hands call.

Given how drawy the board is... I think a call here is right a fair percentage of the time. It only needs to be right about 25% of the time, so you can probably call against an aggressive player.

Against an unknown..... flip a coin.

[AdamBragar]

Your 2 pair might be good as he might have a missed flush draw, so yeah, I'd probably throw out a decent bet on the river. If he calls and shows QJ or KQ, I'd imagine you can now note he's gonna pay off tons of hands when he hits top pair.

As it played, I still probably call the river.

[amoeba]

if he can have missed flush draw then check call on the river is infinitely better than blocking bet.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably throw out a decent bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What worse hands call?

[AdamBragar]

I'm not looking for a call, I'm looking to block a big bluff. If I bet the river, hopefully a missed draw is just going to give up, figuring they aren't going to be able to bluff me off the hand.


I also do agree with the previous poster who said that check calling might be the best play here. I pretty much usually assume if people call a flop bet and turn bet on a draw heavy board, and don't raise, they are probably drawing. So I don't know if I need throw out a bet to try to gain more information on the river. But, I like check calling rivers too often and was trying to think of another, possibly cheaper line.

[Kirkrrr]

Ugly, but getting 3:1 you have to call. I make a lot of money check-calling missed draws on the river, and there's a lot of hands that could've missed on that board. If he's got KQ/QJ, tough break, but he won't have that more than 1 out of 3 times here.

Kirk

[Kirkrrr]

Oh, and what's with the 78s UTG raise? Is that becoming standard practice or what? /images/graemlins/grin.gif Seriously, I see more and more people doing it now.

Kirk

[amoeba]

blocking for 90 is really bad.

you weren't willing to call a $125 bet so the $35 you save is not worth the value you get from inducing him to bluff missed draws.assuming you even know he is not aggressive enough to read you for a blocking bet and come over the top anyways.

on the end I just don't think a naked Q bets here unless if he knows your UTG raise range is really wide. its either something that can beat a Q or a missed draw.

[swarm]

It's 6 max so it's raisable i guess, I would normally muck 87s UTG unless on a rush... With that said is that your normal preflop raise? If you are going to come in for a raise at least make it 16.

Pot the flop, Pot the turn, you don't mind if he folds the turn you only have bottom 2 on a super draw heavy board.

I think whether you bet or check/call this river is very player dependent.

6max, 2-4... he showed no agression until your river check... how it was played and the bet amount smells of a missed draw bluff, got to call with the odds.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I also do agree with the previous poster who said that check calling might be the best play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, me too. Like I said in my first post.

[ QUOTE ]
So I don't know if I need throw out a bet to try to gain more information on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

A blocking bet here may induce a raise on a bluff, which costs you even more.

[ QUOTE ]
possibly cheaper line

[/ QUOTE ]
This bet only costs money, it doesn't save you anything.

The only other reasonable line is check/fold, and I think it's very close.

[rwperu34]

Block is bad. Check/fold is good. One of the biggest mistakes players make in this game is trying to get too much value from mediocre hands on the river. QA-QJ will value bet here, as will 99-JJ on occasion. When you combine that with all the legitimate hands (boats, overpairs, trips) that will value bet, there is just no way that an unknown is betting a missed draw 27% of the time. He might have a draw that often, but will certianly check behind some of the time. Also, since that is a legitimate bet, it makes it less likey to be a bluff (from an unknown).

This is a situation where a "read" can make you call the bet, but against an unknown, max EV is in the muck.

[rwperu34]

If you are going to bet this river, bet it big and try and make a Q fold. I don't think it's worth it, but if you count in the times that you will fold to the missed draw, it can get closer. My preferred line is check/fold against an unknown.

[amoeba]

excellent post.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to bet this river, bet it big and try and make a Q fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadn't considered this line... but I think it's -EV.

[rwperu34]

Another big river mistake is people betting $125 when they only have $235 left in Z stack. In other words, this guy drops $235 when he's behind but only gains $125 when he's ahead, so he's got to be ahead that much more often. This is a value bet my friend. Fold fold fold!

[rwperu34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to bet this river, bet it big and try and make a Q fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadn't considered this line... but I think it's -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but against an unkown, I think it's less -EV than a blocker. This play will be +EV against some players, where a blocker is -EV against all players.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but against an unkown, I think it's less -EV than a blocker. This play will be +EV against some players, where a blocker is -EV against all players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely.