accidental 3 bet with middle pair no kicker - not so bad?

[bigalt]

Pokerroom 2/4 10 Players.

Haven't played too many hands at the table (25 or so), though both SB and UTG+2 have been playing a lot of hands, and are moderately aggressive.

Hero has button with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/club.gif

PREFLOP
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, hero calls, SB RAISES, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, hero calls.

FLOP (3 players, 8 SB): 3/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB BETS, UTG+2 RAISES, HERO RAISES


As soon as I saw that flop I meant to raise the autobet, but with all the crap all over the pokerroom tables I missed the middle bet and ended up 3-betting.

But now I'm wondering if that isn't the right play. If I count all 6.5 of my outs (I have no reason yet to discount them) I've almost got odds to call 2 bets, but with a raise I can probably knock out SB's overcards if that's what he's got. Then take a free card if I'm given one, fold if I'm not?

There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that you did the right play. Three betting was definetely the correct play, you have middle pair with both a backdoor flush/straight draw and also a powerful kicker with your pair. The most important thing about the three-bet was that you sent a message to your opponents that you are not one to be reckoned with.

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerroom 2/4 10 Players.

Haven't played too many hands at the table (25 or so), though both SB and UTG+2 have been playing a lot of hands, and are moderately aggressive.

Hero has button with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/club.gif

PREFLOP
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, hero calls, SB RAISES, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, hero calls.

FLOP (3 players, 8 SB): 3/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB BETS, UTG+2 RAISES, HERO RAISES


As soon as I saw that flop I meant to raise the autobet, but with all the crap all over the pokerroom tables I missed the middle bet and ended up 3-betting.

But now I'm wondering if that isn't the right play. If I count all 6.5 of my outs (I have no reason yet to discount them) I've almost got odds to call 2 bets, but with a raise I can probably knock out SB's overcards if that's what he's got. Then take a free card if I'm given one, fold if I'm not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on how LAG these guys are, but I don't like it. I think you could fold the flop as we're not closing the action.

I think calling is better than raising, b/c I don't think we need to worry about knocking out SB if he has AK, as it looks like we're behind UTG+2 and are going to have to improve to win, and we want AK around to pad the pot.

[bigalt]

[ QUOTE ]

I think calling is better than raising, b/c I don't think we need to worry about knocking out SB if he has AK, as it looks like we're behind UTG+2 and are going to have to improve to win, and we want AK around to pad the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah tooling around with pokerstove says knocking him out raises my equity from 26.5% to 27% (assuming he has a non-club AK). I forgot that he has no re-draw if I land my 2 pair.

I don't think you'll be able to fold everyone out of this pot, so you want as many people in as possible so you get paid well when you hit.

I don't like your call preflop.

[toss]

I'd discount your BD outs since a 6 high flush won't win as often. It almost certain your behind to better pair or worse. You'll also get outdrawn sometimes. You have a weak BD straight draw. So I'd say something like 5.5 outs.

You're getting 5.5:1 on the flop with a risk that it'll get 3-bet or even capped. I'd excercise a disciplined fold here. However I do think 3-betting is better than calling if you think it'll shut down the action and give a free card.

[bigalt]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd discount your BD outs since a 6 high flush won't win as often. It almost certain your behind to better pair or worse. You'll also get outdrawn sometimes. You have a weak BD straight draw. So I'd say something like 5.5 outs.

You're getting 5.5:1 on the flop with a risk that it'll get 3-bet or even capped. I'd excercise a disciplined fold here. However I do think 3-betting is better than calling if you think it'll shut down the action and give a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it doesn't make a difference to me whether someone has 77, KQ, or AA right now. Aside from the unlikely QQ I think it's pretty safe to assume I'm behind a higher pair.

The unfortunate bit is AA or KK is probably going to cap here, but if you can be reasonably assured that they wouldn't cap just the pair of queens and you'll probably get your free card if they don't improve, maybe it's worth staying in? Just using 5.5 outs twice, that's a 23% chance of improving, which is about what % of the pot you're throwing in with 3 bets.

(oh and if anyone else hates the preflop call please speak up)

[drewjustdrew]

If this is a table where I should get paid off if I hit my hand, I don't mind the preflop call.

[pauliewalnuts]

I'd call here pf on the button everytime unless the blinds were super aggressive.