Any lessons to share at 2/4?

[Roadstar]

I'm thinking of moving up to 2/4 full ring and hoping to hear from those willing to share their stories/lessons when they moved up from 1/2 to 2/4.
Please be as concrete and specific as possible (I already know the generic "move up if you feel ready", "give it a shot but move back down if it doesn't work out") /images/graemlins/smile.gif


Greatly appreciate if you could include specifics relating to:

1) Table composition (on average, say on Party, how many LPP, LAGs and TAGS per table?)

2) Specific adjustments required at 2/4 preflop, flop and later streets.


Just for background, I've done about 12,000 hands at 1/2 with a 2BB/100 and under 7,000 hands at 1/2 6 max at 6BB/100 (I dunno still small sample I guess).

When I moved from .5/1 to 1/2 I had to make changes like folding small PP in EP at slightly tighter tables, learning to 3 bet LAGs to isolate, learning to open raise in LP (i.e. with KJo, A9o), slightly more check/raising (against a late position PFR, etc. So just hoping those at 2/4 (or above) could pass on some wisdom as to minimize my "tuition fees" at 2/4. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Thanks guys!

[MrWookie47]

I have some thoughts along those lines here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=2965811&fpart =1&PHPSESSID=)

[Paxosmotic]

You'll hate my reply, as it's nowhere near as specific as you like, but here goes. 2/4 is exactly the same as 1/2. The big jump is .5/1 -> 1/2. The jump to 2/4 is such a cake walk. You can expect your winrate to drop only fractionally, making 2/4 much more profitable overall. My recommendation would be to set aside 200BB for 2/4 (that's $800 for you math geniuses) and take a shot at it.

I think that as you move up from .5/1 --> 1/2 --> 2/4 it becomes harder to find really good loose passive tables. So table selection is really important.

In general that the players are a little better so you pay more when you make mistakes, and the other players don't make as many mistakes. I think paying attention to how people play becomes much more important, I basically just autopilot at 1/2 and that becomes a problem at 2/4 because I have found that the play starts to become more aggressive, i.e. people bluff raising more and stuff like that.

I'm not probably not the best source though I have 54K hands at 1/2 at 3BB/100, but through 18K hands at 2/4 I am only .34BB/100.

[MrWookie47]

Try sitting down at empty 2/4 tables. You can thank me (and Grunch) later.

[ QUOTE ]
Try sitting down at empty 2/4 tables. You can thank me (and Grunch) later.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have heard of this strategy, is that how you game select at 2/4?

[MrWookie47]

Every time. You start of taking money from loose passive players who don't know how to play short, and then you take money from a whole lot of loose passive players who don't know how to play full.

[ QUOTE ]
Every time. You start of taking money from loose passive players who don't know how to play short, and then you take money from a whole lot of loose passive players who don't know how to play full.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, though I think I have to learn how to play short myself first /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[SCfuji]

do you wait until the table fills to 3 or 4 handed before sitting in or start right off playing hu? i think playing hu sucks on party.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll hate my reply, as it's nowhere near as specific as you like, but here goes. 2/4 is exactly the same as 1/2. The big jump is .5/1 -> 1/2. The jump to 2/4 is such a cake walk. You can expect your winrate to drop only fractionally, making 2/4 much more profitable overall. My recommendation would be to set aside 200BB for 2/4 (that's $800 for you math geniuses) and take a shot at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i second this.
except for me, me 2/4 winrate was a tenth of my 1/2 winrate. winrates are for sissies...

focus on your play and your opponents everything else you do at 1/2. the limit is incidental (assuming you are rolled for it)

[mr_perry84]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll hate my reply, as it's nowhere near as specific as you like, but here goes. 2/4 is exactly the same as 1/2. The big jump is .5/1 -> 1/2. The jump to 2/4 is such a cake walk. You can expect your winrate to drop only fractionally, making 2/4 much more profitable overall. My recommendation would be to set aside 200BB for 2/4 (that's $800 for you math geniuses) and take a shot at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dissagree. You get a lot more tight tables at 2-4 and blind play becomes a hell of a lot more important. At 1-2 most pots are contested against many opponents so certain hands lose value and others go up in value. Also if you multi table at 2-4 you'll feel the swings on your bankroll a lot more when things arent going your way or you get bluffed raised out of a pot or 2.

All in all, i think build a decent bankroll at 1-2, move up and gain experience. Also there's a great post on here about not restricting yourself to 1 limit. Find a table you have an edge at and exploit it. At certain times at 2-4 your edge isnt that great as is most of the time at 1-2 or at very least it is harder to find.

[BluEsiNsOuL]

If you can keep a 6BB/100 winrate at 1/2 Max, 2/4 won't be as profitable unless you can 8-table. If I can reach that winrate, I would be happily camping there for a while.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You'll hate my reply, as it's nowhere near as specific as you like, but here goes. 2/4 is exactly the same as 1/2. The big jump is .5/1 -> 1/2. The jump to 2/4 is such a cake walk. You can expect your winrate to drop only fractionally, making 2/4 much more profitable overall. My recommendation would be to set aside 200BB for 2/4 (that's $800 for you math geniuses) and take a shot at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dissagree. You get a lot more tight tables at 2-4 and blind play becomes a hell of a lot more important. At 1-2 most pots are contested against many opponents so certain hands lose value and others go up in value. Also if you multi table at 2-4 you'll feel the swings on your bankroll a lot more when things arent going your way or you get bluffed raised out of a pot or 2.

All in all, i think build a decent bankroll at 1-2, move up and gain experience. Also there's a great post on here about not restricting yourself to 1 limit. Find a table you have an edge at and exploit it. At certain times at 2-4 your edge isnt that great as is most of the time at 1-2 or at very least it is harder to find.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the key. If you can find a good 2/4 or whatever limit table that plays like a 1/2 table your winrate should be the same. However, at 2/4 it is harder to find good games, the "TAG" players play a lot better, and even loose players are more selectivly aggressive. So I think in order to beat 2/4, or probably any time you move up, you have to evaluate your play, evaluate the way the games play and adjust. IMO every time you move up your edge gets smaller and your winrate will go down in relation to that.

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
do you wait until the table fills to 3 or 4 handed before sitting in or start right off playing hu? i think playing hu sucks on party.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does suck, but you'd be surprised how quickly those tables fill up.

Do you keep a separate PT database for 6Max. Think I'm going to get my feet wet to clear my Empire and Party bonsuses this month.

[kapw7]

Bluff turn (check-) raise the weak tighties A LOT. And as usual value bet the loose players.
Although, I haven't played 2/4 full for 3 moths now.

[MrWookie47]

Yeah. I have 3 PT databases: 6 Max, Full, and 2+2 Tables. Some people have two more databases: one for datamined full ring hands, and one for datamined 6 max, but I don't datamine enough to bother w/ those.

[Roadstar]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluff turn (check-) raise the weak tighties A LOT. And as usual value bet the loose players.
Although, I haven't played 2/4 full for 3 moths now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Thats interesting /images/graemlins/smile.gif So a lot more weak tighties at 2/4 at Party? (kinda like Absolute then?)

Thanks for everyone's comments. And about my 1/2 6 max win rate, its still a small sample so who knows what my true winrate is /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I was hoping to find tables to not be much harder because of the lack of 2/4 6 max at Party.


Also, do you guys find in +EV to play the BBJ tables which presumably should be looser?

Thanks again

[mr_perry84]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO every time you move up your edge gets smaller and your winrate will go down in relation to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. To say is the same as 1-2 is absurd. People make less mistakes at 2-4 and therefore you win less. If for example you make 1.5bb/100 at 2-4 and 3bb/100 at 1-2 stay there! dont feel pressure to move up because you feel you have to.

[shadow29]

Hyper-aggressive play won money at .5/1, 1/2, and 1/2 short.

Hyper-aggressive play does not win money at 2/4.

Be careful with trying to explode all over the loose passives there. Sometimes more passive lines win more money.

I don't know if you play hyper-aggressively. I did and it took me 5k hands to figure out that that isn't the way to beat 2/4.

At 3/6 short, however, I think that hyper-aggressive play is best.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, do you guys find in +EV to play the BBJ tables which presumably should be looser?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is slightly looser but I don't know if the difference is large enough (I've heard that when the jackpot gets high enough that it is worth playing there). Sometimes there are terrible players there, but then again there are often terrible players at regular tables so if you are paying a higher rake you should be getting something back for it.

[Roadstar]

[ QUOTE ]
Hyper-aggressive play won money at .5/1, 1/2, and 1/2 short.

Hyper-aggressive play does not win money at 2/4.

Be careful with trying to explode all over the loose passives there. Sometimes more passive lines win more money.

I don't know if you play hyper-aggressively. I did and it took me 5k hands to figure out that that isn't the way to beat 2/4.

At 3/6 short, however, I think that hyper-aggressive play is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very interesting, I think my 1/2 6 max win rate is (unsustainably) high right now because I learned to play hyperaggressive (while still considering opponents and board texture of course).

So for 2/4 full - do you start inducing bluffs with check/call lines (OOP presumably)?

As an aside - did you jump from 1/2 6 max to 3/6 6 max or did you go to 2/4 6 max at pokerstars or something? I find I do pretty well in 6 max because I can and enjoy reading my opponents better (I 2 table at most when playing 6 max)... or it could be near-term luck..

Does the same winning style at 1/2 6 max work at 3/6 6 max?

Again thank you for everyones responses (Wook your link is great)

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
So for 2/4 full - do you start inducing bluffs with check/call lines (OOP presumably)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this line is part of an overall more passive strategy. More calling down on the flop and turn when you have a strong hand against some players. Other WA/WB lines. Think more about draws and how everyone else in the pot affects your action, etc. Note that there are still players against whom you should play aggressively. But not against standard 40/0/0 2/4 dude.

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside - did you jump from 1/2 6 max to 3/6 6 max or did you go to 2/4 6 max at pokerstars or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

.5/1 --> 1/2 --> 1/2 short --> 2/4 --> 3/6 short.

I played the 2/4 tables short-handed. The tables are tons better that way. More laggish players, more terrible players, and less 2+2 players. I would wager that >75% of my hands at 2/4 were <6 handed.

[ QUOTE ]
I find I do pretty well in 6 max because I can and enjoy reading my opponents better (I 2 table at most when playing 6 max)... or it could be near-term luck..

[/ QUOTE ]

Play the short handed 2/4 tables.

[ QUOTE ]
Does the same winning style at 1/2 6 max work at 3/6 6 max?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um yes and no. The players at 3/6 short are better than 1/2 short opponents, but also a lot worse in some respects. I dunno how to explain it. But for the most part, your overall strategy isn't affected too much.

John

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Hyper-aggressive play won money at .5/1, 1/2, and 1/2 short.

Hyper-aggressive play does not win money at 2/4.

Be careful with trying to explode all over the loose passives there. Sometimes more passive lines win more money.

I don't know if you play hyper-aggressively. I did and it took me 5k hands to figure out that that isn't the way to beat 2/4.

At 3/6 short, however, I think that hyper-aggressive play is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm also going to second this (of course, i shouldn't need to since we all know shadow is god's gift to poker).

i didn't change my play much from 1/2 to 2/4 to 3/6 (all full) and anecdotally based on only 30k of 1/2, 30k of 2/4, and 12k of 3/6 an aggressive style of play has worked very well for me at 1/2 and 3/6 but not at 2/4.

i should say that i probably tilted off at least 250 bb at 2/4 in frustration so who knows...

i think it does boil down to me not taking more passive lines against the very passive players (ie, i wasn't paying enough attention to them)

of course, this is all a small sample so ymmv.

[pryor15]

i haven't read all the responses, but over my first 27k hands, i've found the play to overall be about the same, but where the 1/2 games were really weak tight, the 2/4 tends to be a bit more manic in that they don't like aggression very much and are more willing to fight back. this is great when you have the nuts, but not so good other times (AK UI, for example)

i see a lot more people slowplaying AA & KK, but that could be a sample size thing.

i think the preflop play is worse, but post flop they're better at making you pay when they hit the miracle flop

either that, or i've just been running bad.

[detruncate]

You adapt the same way you adapt every time you open a table: assess the players, be aware of the overall table texture, adopt a suitable strategy. Stay at a table if you think it's profitable (sufficiently soft opposition, good relative position), leave otherwise. Everything else is down to chip colour.

I'd pay extra attention to table and seat selection for a while, and would suggest some datamining to help you identify people want/don't want on your immediate left and right. Table selection probably isn't critically important at 2/4 most of the time, but there's no sense making things any harder than they have to be while you're transitioning. I'd also suggest sticking to 1 or 2 tables your first few sessions to give yourself plenty of time to think about things. You might also want to look for tables that approximate the texture you're most familiar with.

It's probably not that big a jump if you're prepared to step outside your comfort zone, though don't worry too much if it takes a while to establish yourself -- I started off with a slide and it took ~9000 hands to pop above 1 BB/100 for the first time, others start off hot and never look back.

Best of luck and happy pokering.

[milesdyson]

well we all know the different aggro lagro tagro playing styles. hyperaggro, superaggro, bossaggro, melloaggro, loosaggro, tightaggro, etc. then there are the lappy tappy sappy styles. well, i have found the key to 2/4 is a mix. here's the recipe:

20% bossaggro
20% melloaggro
40% tightaggro
15% lappy
15% sappy

hope it works as well for you as it does for me

[fundmyhabit]

[ QUOTE ]
well we all know the different aggro lagro tagro playing styles. hyperaggro, superaggro, bossaggro, melloaggro, loosaggro, tightaggro, etc. then there are the lappy tappy sappy styles. well, i have found the key to 2/4 is a mix. here's the recipe:

20% bossaggro
20% melloaggro
40% tightaggro
15% lappy
15% sappy

hope it works as well for you as it does for me

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to give a 110% effort

Hey Wook I have one more 6max question. Can you 4 table 1/2 6max effectively. I jumped on Empire tonight and tried it, 6 max is obviously where all the donks are going, but I dropped like 25BB. I'm going to move down to 2 tables until I know that I'm beating the game, but I was just wondering if you are able to get to a point where you can 4 table effectively.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well we all know the different aggro lagro tagro playing styles. hyperaggro, superaggro, bossaggro, melloaggro, loosaggro, tightaggro, etc. then there are the lappy tappy sappy styles. well, i have found the key to 2/4 is a mix. here's the recipe:

20% bossaggro
20% melloaggro
40% tightaggro
15% lappy
15% sappy

hope it works as well for you as it does for me

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to give a 110% effort

[/ QUOTE ]

hilarious

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Wook I have one more 6max question. Can you 4 table 1/2 6max effectively. I jumped on Empire tonight and tried it, 6 max is obviously where all the donks are going, but I dropped like 25BB. I'm going to move down to 2 tables until I know that I'm beating the game, but I was just wondering if you are able to get to a point where you can 4 table effectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've just barely started 4 tabling. If you're just starting, I'd highly recommend playing no more than two tables. Eventually you'll be able to work up to three, and then 4, as you get more comfortable. The pace of 6 max is much faster, so it takes some getting used to.

[stlip]

I've been slowly transitioning from 1/2 to 2/4 over the last few months myself.

If you were doing a lot of blind stealing (35+ percent) and some blind defense at 1/2 then the game won't look all that different to you after a few hundred or a thousand hands.

The biggest thing I noticed was that you need to be more discriminating about value betting on the river. At 1/2 I would bet anything that I thought might be the best hand, or anytime I had been leading the betting and not encountered anyone playing back at me. At 2/4 I saw for the first time that people would mostly call the river when they could beat the obvious minimal hand that would be betting and fold if they couldn't. So you have to do a better job of reading the board and making sure there are some hands that could have been made that will feel compelled to call, but still lose to your TPTK type hands.