Maybe standard, maybe not.

[Entity]

I'm just posting standard hands or hands that feel pretty standard because I thinkt hat's a good way to evaluate some parts of my game (I'm constantly looking for refinement in my play). So here's one. Is this a turn check?

PFR is a LAG preflop with average-to-moderate postflop aggression. The rest of the field is unknown. It's my first hand at the table.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP calls, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, SB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero folds, MP calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

[B Dids]

What's your plan if the flop gets raised?

Given that it's the first hand at the table, I have trouble firing again on the flop with bottom pair, still, it doesn't seem horrible.

The river seems pretty standard.

[Catt]

I don't like your flop bet. The parlay of PFR raising and being successful at blowing out the whole field (or most of it) doesn't strike me as likely enough to make the play worthwhile. I'd rather take my chances that UTG bets the flop and it comes back to me unraised. You've got a nasty surprise for anyone (PFR?) playing an A if it turns, and I think you're better off laying low and seeing what happens on the flop and what comes on the turn. Having led the flop, I think it is close betwee leading and checking the turn.

Standard

[Fianchetto]

I don't really like the flop play, why'd you bet it?

[TStoneMBD]

i dont bet this flop. let UTG bet his overcards for you. you probably have him dominated with your ace kicker anyway. no reason to show strength yet and betting doesnt protect your hand because youre only raised when youre behind.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really like the flop play, why'd you bet it?

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise from the PFR will help my hand's chances of winning the pot quite a bit, and I think I've got the best hand a fair amount against the field. Allowing the rest of the field to define their hands isn't that bad of a thing either.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont bet this flop. let UTG bet his overcards for you. you probably have him dominated with your ace kicker anyway. no reason to show strength yet and betting doesnt protect your hand because youre only raised when youre behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, I feel like a LAG with fair-to-middling aggression (54/22/1.8 IIRC) will raise a donkbet on this flop with enough hands that I don't mind at all if he raises. It's not like he's only raising PP's and A/Q/KJ here.

Rob

[TStoneMBD]

i like to checkraise these flops because it clearly defines your hand and lets you know when you need to get to the showdown or not. if you checkraise and villain 3bets or raises the turn you can muck. if youre going to go to showdown even if he raises the flop i think this is a safer line.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
i like to checkraise these flops because it clearly defines your hand and lets you know when you need to get to the showdown or not. if you checkraise and villain 3bets or raises the turn you can muck. if youre going to go to showdown even if he raises the flop i think this is a safer line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not necessarily going to showdown if he raises the flop, though I'm often seeing the river. The real problem I have with checkraising is that it's gonna make it just about impossible for me or anyone else to fold before the river.

Rob

[Fianchetto]

[ QUOTE ]
A raise from the PFR will help my hand's chances of winning the pot quite a bit, and I think I've got the best hand a fair amount against the field. Allowing the rest of the field to define their hands isn't that bad of a thing either.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

With your hand and that flop + 5 opponents, I really don't feel too committed to this one.

So you're hoping the preflop raiser has AK/AQ + he decides to raise the flop + nobody else has a piece of that board (a random jack, or spade draw) and they all fold. That is quite a parlay!

I think the best line with this many opponents is to peel one off for 1SB if you can, or maybe checkraise if somehow it gets checked to the button and he bets. Leading the flop is going to get you raised a fair amount of time when you are drawing thin, and even if you are ahead you have a lot of ways to lose this hand and you should consider trying to see a safe turn card cheaply.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A raise from the PFR will help my hand's chances of winning the pot quite a bit, and I think I've got the best hand a fair amount against the field. Allowing the rest of the field to define their hands isn't that bad of a thing either.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

With your hand and that flop + 5 opponents, I really don't feel too committed to this one.

So you're hoping that preflop raiser has AK/AQ + he decides to raise the flop + nobody else has a piece of that board (a random jack, or spade) and they all fold. That is quite a parlay!

I think the best line with this many opponents is to peel one off for 1SB if you can, or maybe checkraise if somehow it gets checked to the button and he bets. Leading the flop is going to get you raised a fair amount of time when you are drawing thin, and even if you are ahead you have a lot of ways to lose this hand and should consider trying to see a safe turn card cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

AK/AQ/KQ/K/images/graemlins/spade.gifTx. I don't mind check-calling here; I think checkraising is a lot worse than betting out, and I'm still a bit torn between check-calling and bet-calling.

I'm not sure why I care if people have a random spade; if they have two random spades I'm not in great shape but one of the reasons I bet out was to define my hand against the rest of the field. After I bet and everyone called, I think my turn play is pretty debatable. I do that the flop and the turn are close decisions and that preflop and the river are far from close decisions, FWIW.

Rob

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I do that the flop and the turn are close decisions and that preflop and the river are far from close decisions, FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

@TStone: are you really check-raising this flop if UTG bets and gets a caller or two? That doesn't seem good to me. I can see ck-raising if LP bets, SB folds, and action's on me, but it would never occur to me to see this flop, expect a bet from my left, and begin thinking about a C/R when there are all those people in between me and the bet.

[Fianchetto]

Yes, I meant spade draw, sorry.

I agree, preflop and river are standard. Turn bet I'm not crazy about.

Flop, I really think checking is best in this case.

I am usually ready to give up on this hand pretty early. You have a halfway decent chance of not having the best hand, and little chance of taking it on the flop or turn with a bet. You have a few outs, but usually your ace outs are limited. There is a chance you will get outplayed with some scary turn/river cards and you have no backdoor outs.

Think about it like this:

There is such a small chance that you have someone out-kicked right now. With that in mind, would you play 42o the same way. Bottom pair is bottom pair here.

I would check the flop and make a call or raise based on whether or not I feel I'm good or if the pot offers correct odds. You can also avoid this hairy turn situation OOP when you give everyone else the chance to act first on the flop.

[TStoneMBD]

I would checkraise the UTG bettor and a caller, but not more than that. If UTG's bet gets 2 callers I would just call. If UTG bet and everyone folded I would just call. An extra caller in between us gives me protection from being raised off the best hand. However, if UTG bets and gets 1 caller I wouldn't always checkraise. It depends on the my read of the UTG raiser and the caller. If the caller is the type to peel this flop with no pair then I think a checkraise has value, plus the value of information. It also depends on my read of UTG, what range of hands I put him on and how I think he will respond to a checkraise. Many players will take 1 off with overcards or fold the turn. If he calls the turn you know where you stand. If I think he might 3bet/raise turn with a weaker hand then of course I wouldn't do this.