$11's AQ... fold TPTK from early position?

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

Does anyone ever fold TPTK? Please explain your answer... i.e. yes, fold in early levels w/ many people or yes when blinds are small, not late in in game, never fold... he most likely has Qx etc. Also, is my pre flop play ok? Even if I just called pre-flop, this hand is trouble post flop... trouble unless I fold pre-flop...

10 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Dr_Jeckyl_00 (725)
Seat 2: bigbie1985 (2140)
Seat 3: xylofile (755)
Seat 4: MarianLowery (630)
Seat 5: launchsick (800)
Seat 7: mschneid (795)
Seat 8: hawaiireese (705)
Seat 9: Titan488 (675)
Seat 10: skandaku (775)
Dr_Jeckyl_00 posts small blind (10)
bigbie1985 posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dr_Jeckyl_00 [ Ac, Qd ]
xylofile folds.
MarianLowery calls (15)
launchsick folds.
mschneid calls (15)
hawaiireese folds.
Titan488 folds.
skandaku folds.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 raises (65) to 75
bigbie1985 calls (60)
MarianLowery calls (60)
mschneid calls (60)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qs, 8d, 5c ]
Dr_Jeckyl_00 bets (100)
bigbie1985 folds.
MarianLowery folds.
mschneid raises (720) to 720
mschneid is all-In.
HERO?
Results in white <font color="white">
Dr_Jeckyl_00 calls (550)
Dr_Jeckyl_00 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5s ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 6h ]
Creating Main Pot with $1600 with Dr_Jeckyl_00
Creating Side Pot 1 with $70 with mschneid
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1600 | Side Pot 1: 70
Board: [ Qs 8d 5c 5s 6h ]
Dr_Jeckyl_00 balance 0, lost 725 [ Ac Qd ] [ two pairs, queens and fives -- Ac,Qd,Qs,5c,5s ]
bigbie1985 balance 2065, lost 75 (folded)
xylofile balance 755, didn't bet (folded)
MarianLowery balance 555, lost 75 (folded)
launchsick balance 800, didn't bet (folded)
mschneid balance 1670, bet 795, collected 1670, net +875 [ 8c 8s ] [ a full house, Eights full of fives -- 8c,8s,8d,5c,5s ]
hawaiireese balance 705, didn't bet (folded)
Titan488 balance 675, didn't bet (folded)
skandaku balance 775, didn't bet (folded)
</font>

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

bump - I need some advice...

[Raiser]

I wouldn't fold in this spot at an $11. Villain could easily have KQ or QJ. Or he could just be stacking off.

[SonnyJay]

I'm probably not laying this down at an $11, though with the board completely uncoordinated I can understand being hesitant to call since it's unlikely he has a draw. I think you'll see a worse queen here more often than you'll see 2 pair or better.

FWIW, I'm not raising AQo in the SB. I'm not really looking to build a big pot here OOP and at an $11 I don't think you're eliminating opponents very often.

-SonnyJay

[nyc999]

At the $11's, I call this - unless you have some read on the villain that says they're solid.

Also, I think you need to lead out for more than 1/3 of the pot on the flop. Your actions looked like a weak continuation bet and invite a bluff.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think you need to lead out for more than 1/3 of the pot on the flop. Your actions looked like a weak continuation bet and invite a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with inviting a bluff here?

[playtitleist]

First, that was a bold raise you made with AQo OOP at Lvl1. I just call the BB here and see a flop. The t100 was a good size bet, and is well disguised as a continuation bet. However, once you got the all-in on you, you need to look back at what they might have called pre-flop with.

The fact that you did make the pf raise gave you some good information about the callers. Somebody might be slow-playing their AA/KK. Another is likely on AK/AQ. And expect to see at least one pocket pair. And of course a rag hand since this is the 11s.

So, your considerations needs to be, what hands would make that bet, and what hands do I have beat.

AA/KK - both hands go all-in here to your raise. A good player stops the slow play so as not to let you draw to two pair or trips. You lose to him.

QQ - Not likely with your holding and the Q on the board, but possible and you are dead if he has it. But, he would't go all in here, he'd continue the slow play.

AK - Not likely to go all-in with no hand. You beat him.

AQ - Might go all in with TPTK, but you don't beat him, you tie him. So a big risk for small split pot reward.

PP - Making trips is 7:1, so likely a PP didn't hit. You are huge dog if you call and he turns 88/55. You lose to him if he has it. Any other pocket pair would be crazy to go all in to a t100 bet with an over on the board.

Rags - wouldn't make the all-in.

So you beat AK, tie AQ, beat pockets other than AA/KK/QQ/88/55.

Your decision comes down to: What would he call pre-flop raise with and go all-in over the top of a t100 bet? I think it is only AA/KK or made set of 88/55.

I think you are behind 75% of the time here, based on the way the hand played out.

edit - this is all based on the fact that you got three callers on your pre-flop raise. had you got one caller, I would have called his all-in.

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think you need to lead out for more than 1/3 of the pot on the flop. Your actions looked like a weak continuation bet and invite a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with inviting a bluff here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Word. I thought the continuation-looking bet was perfect. I fold to the all-in, but a) I lose less chips than if I had bet say t200 and b) if villain is going to bluff all-in let him, cuz one day I will have QQ here instead of TPTK.

In an 11, I wouldn't be one bit surprised for this guy to push QJ-Q2. I wouldnt even be that surprised with A8 or A5. Your call seems fine to me.

[playtitleist]

You'll get a lot of early exits calling here. Believe me, my stats prove it. You win, your ITM chance go way up, but not 100%. You lose, your ITM chances are 0%.

I'm gonna let him have it and play on.

Again, if it were one pre-flop caller, I call this all-in. Not against three though.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

very nice analysis... thanks

[nyc999]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think you need to lead out for more than 1/3 of the pot on the flop. Your actions looked like a weak continuation bet and invite a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with inviting a bluff here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing at all...unless you plan to fold to it, which it sounds like the OP strongly considered and some people are advocating.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think you need to lead out for more than 1/3 of the pot on the flop. Your actions looked like a weak continuation bet and invite a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with inviting a bluff here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing at all...unless you plan to fold to it, which it sounds like the OP strongly considered and some people are advocating.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time I did not consider folding, but in hind site I wonder if playing tptk as the nuts is a leak of mine, at least at the early levels. Afterall, I think it is rare, even at the $11's, that someone raises all in after I have bet aggressively pf and flop... all-in in this situation seems to suggest extreme strength.

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with inviting a bluff here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing at all...unless you plan to fold to it, which it sounds like the OP strongly considered and some people are advocating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think OP was trying to induce a bluff here, but that's beside the point. Once he got the all-in he's got to fold. You can induce all you want, but there is nothing wrong from backing down from it either.

Clear fold to me. I think a better discussion now is: How does Hero play it if villain makes it t200 to go? What hand makes that bet? What does Hero do on turn and river?

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is rare, even at the $11's

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

[Cactus Jack]

AQ--early in SB?
call, hoping to trap
A decent pot sized bet. Fold to the all in. Even if you're the winning hand, it's a bad call. Early on, it's better to fold the winner than go home a loser. Live to fight another day.

CJ