overcards + other weak draws

$2-$4 pacific, table has been fairly tight/passive.
Hero on the button with 9d 10d.
3 limpers call, hero calls, SB calls, BB checks. 6 SB's
Flop: 6d, 7c, 2s . All check to hero who...?

I see pro's in checking and betting. If we bet, we can thin the field and bit which might make our 9 or 10 good if we spike (although A 10 /J 10 etc still have odds to call). We could also be getting a free card on the turn.

The problem with betting as I see it is that any card J or above on the turn could ruin our hand and then we probably wouldn't have odds to call down with our gutshot if we miss the flush draw. In this scenario the flop bet is a waste. Any comments?

[Webster]

I wuld bet to
1. thin the field (which probebly will not happen)
2. you have overcards

If ONE guy folds you have increased you chance on winning the hand. You overcards might seem weak but maybe larger cards will not flop.

Overcards is where gambling comes into play in Hold'm. For me it all depends how I feel at the time whether I play those weak ones or not. Anybody with TQ might fold because they think you have dominate overcards. Be the leader, not the follower.

Just my opinion

Grinderswarehouse - NOT just another BLOG (http://www.grinderswarehouse.com)

[Piiop]

I'd bet.

It's been checked to you which is a pretty good sign that everyone missed the flop. The only draw is the low straight draws and the table has been tight passive so I think a bet will fold a lot of overcard hands which is very good for you. A bet will allow you to see the river for free if you want it.

Edit: I just wanted to add, a lot of times even tho your opponents have correct odds with overcards (and sometimes even the best hand), they will frequently incorrectly fold them which is great for you. Players facing a bet with AT/KJ/QT on a 672 rainbow board will fold without even thinking about the odds or what you could have.

[SeaEagle]

This is a pretty simple bet. First, you want to thin the field and increase the chance of winning if you pair up. Second, you set yourself up to take a free card on the turn if you like. Third, you have as many as 10 outs + a BDFD; if you get called in more than a single spot, you're probably betting for value.

You have position on a bunch of people who don't like their hands. Use it.

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The problem with betting as I see it is that any card J or above on the turn could ruin our hand and then we probably wouldn't have odds to call down with our gutshot if we miss the flush draw. In this scenario the flop bet is a waste

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1/3 of the time this scenario will occur (and if you bet flop, hopefully you folded out people with the J or better).
1/3 of the time, you'll hit your hand in some fashion (counting /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs)
1/3 of the time, the turn'll be less than a 8 and you'll still be drawing to lots of outs on the river.

Kewl, I like it, thanks for the replies guys /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If the flop was instead: Qd, 8s, 2c and it got checked to me, would you still bet? I would be very wary of a check raise from someone with a Q...

[Webster]

Thne you no longer have over cards do you LOL. Thus - the hand turns rather sucky and I would check and fold. Not a battle I want to get in to know if I hit my hand I still only have 2nd pair.

for me it's just not worth the effort and I'll move on tot he next hand.

Indeed! Stupid adjustment really cos it makes the whole hand unrelated to the first one. I was just interested in how weak you think it becomes, which I agree is very weak.

[SeaEagle]

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If the flop was instead: Qd, 8s, 2c and it got checked to me, would you still bet? I would be very wary of a check raise from someone with a Q...

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This flop is a lot different. With the actual flop, your bet is probably for value since you have so many outs. With this flop you don't have overcards or a gutshot, so your hand is way, way weaker.

Having said that, a really dry, Q-high flop is an excellent flop to bluff at, since you won't get called by draws or overcards. When it gets checked to me on the button, I'll almost always bluff at a flop like this w/ 1 or 2 opponents. Even with 4 opponents, you're probably going to win enough to justify the single small bet. Incidentally, if you're c/red on a Q82r flop, you can safely fold.

[brettbrettr]

Check. Free cards when you have a gutshot plus weak overs are a gift from the gods.

[brettbrettr]

Really? I don't see anyone holding anything jack or better folding. And I don't see anyone who connects on the turn trying to check-raise allowing us to take freebie.

[krimson]

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$2-$4 pacific, table has been fairly tight/passive.


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Uhmm, change tables. Why play on pacific if your going to sit in a tight game?!?!

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If the flop was instead: Qd, 8s, 2c and it got checked to me, would you still bet? I would be very wary of a check raise from someone with a Q...

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With this flop you don't have overcards or a gutshot, so your hand is way, way weaker.

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actually there is a gutshot...

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$2-$4 pacific, table has been fairly tight/passive.


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Uhmm, change tables. Why play on pacific if your going to sit in a tight game?!?!

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Agreed, actually I did change tables after a couple more hands at this table.

[winky51]

4 callers? Most likely one has the flush draw BUT lets say they do. you have any 2xT, 2x9, 3x8 for 7 outs + 1 out for a backdor flush. So its definitly a bet if your last to act. You can get the free card on the turn also. your getting 1:6 here and your chance to come out with something good is about 1:2. Even if your outs are less and some dippoop calls with JT or TQ then you still got 6 outs 1:4 odds.

My mother would bet so you should too.

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Check. Free cards when you have a gutshot plus weak overs are a gift from the gods.

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Really? I don't see anyone holding anything jack or better folding. And I don't see anyone who connects on the turn trying to check-raise allowing us to take freebie.

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the plot thickens...