Doctors - Treating Diseases Instead of Preventing them

[LethalRose]

So I've recently picked up this health book called Natural Hormonal Enhancement. Its basically a book that teaches you how to manipulate your own hormones to gain muscle, improve your health, and improve your body composition (less fat more muscle)

Before he gets to the good stuff. The Author brings up a few interesting points. All are backed up with references/studies. (the book itself references over 1700 studies)

Here are a few things he talks about in great length I was unaware of and surprised to read. Words in italic are straight from the book. Comments in bold are my own interpration of the previous quote.

"In general, orthodox beliefs die slow, painful deaths. At the same time, the presumption of being mistaken automatically attches to those who dissent from widely accepted principles. Compounding the inertia of conventional thoughts that "experts" often have more difficulty than other admitting their mistakes because being wrong on a major issues would be viwed, by some, as invalidating their status of expert."

In other words, it is possible for a doctor to give incorrect advice to a patient knowing it is wrong, because it is the popular belief of his field

A doctor or scientist who dissenter's from the confines of the intellecual community by disavowing the offical dogma ricks being branded as a quack.

He goes on to give the example of Galileo and 5-6 more. Even a recent "breakthrough" in heart disease treatment which was originated back in the 70's, but only now is accepted as fact. This is the part where I start reading the book like a madman, only 1 in 10,000 americans live to be over 100, I want to be one of them.

Where is the outrage and grief for the millions of people who have suffered and died because of the institutional indifference toward, and denial of, alternative health care approaches.

Indeed

here is a part of the chapter which I found very surprising.

Part of the problem is that nowhere in the world can one earn an advanced degree denoting experience in health promotion and disease prevention. Instead, we have a world full of doctors who, although they provide an indispensable service to society, are trained to cure and treat diseases, many of which arise from the failure to take appropriate health-promoting, disease-preventative measure.

Upon beginning medical school, students are indoctrinated into a view of health care devoid any concept of the meaning of health or how to promote it. It is largely for this reason doctors more readily prescribe expensive drugs of questional efficacy bearing adverse side effects than recommend cheap, harmless nutrients which are proven to reduce risk factors for deadly diseases

I think in some cases this is true. When I was younger and overweight I suffered from back problems. I went to my doctor and he prescribed me some pain drugs and recommended I take it easy for a while..I did this and suffered for months, then suddently I joined a gym started to eat right, lost over 100ibs and now I have zero pain in my back, or anywhere else for that matter. My doctor's recommendation should of been to get my fat ass off the couch and learn how to fuel my body correctly. Nope, drugs for me.I have dated a PA (Physicians assistant) and you would not believe how much money they make for every surgery/procedure they do. Doctors would make very little money if everyone was healthy.

Our health-care system should be concerned solely with caring for peoples' health. Caring for health entails promoting health, a concept alien to our current system in which crisis intervention, sympton control, and disease treatment predominate.

Think about it, right now the "experts" tell us that fat makes us fat and to avoid it. A high carb low fat diet is best. This is simply not true.

Now my response after reading this was "great, now I get to pay 45.99 for his perfect health system/ whatever hes trying to sell"

well, after reading the book I found nothing of the sort. He doesnt try to sell anything, nowhere in the book does he say "go out and buy this" he simply explains what needs to be done and why, giving tons of references. Its up to the reader to do it.

This book is fairly new, and after reading it I realized that it contained everything and more of what I have learned in the past 3 years reading, posting on forums and reading books. It may just spark a lot of interest once people find out about it.

so, what do you guys think? do doctors really focus on treating diseases and not preventing them in the first place? I admit his points make sense and he seems to be unbiased. Has anyone experienced something like I did?

or are doctors not to blame for how obese/unhealthy we are. Its our own fault and doctors do try to help but people in general dont listen.

I think one of the things is that people dont want to go to their doctor to here "you should change the way you live your life". People get very defensive about those sorts of things. There is some self deception and denial involved in it.

Here in Canada, doctors will often "recommend" you make the right choices for yourself, but they wont push you to make them. Thats not their job. They dont have time to babysit you.

[tdarko]

i didn't even read this but i know this is why my grandpa told me to tell colonol radley to not to give into the the [censored]' vietcong and that we may be prisoner's but we ain't given them any information, they are just gonna have to kill us first.

true story. it was yesterday.

[Claunchy]

Tl;dr.

I used to workout pretty frequently for a few years, alternating mass building and cutting cycles. And what I noticed was whenever I would "cut up" and eat very strictly (minimal carbs, low fat, no preservatives, no alcohol, etc.), every single physical ailment I suffered from, would almost immediately disappear.

My allergies would completely vanish, and my eczema would clear up in only a week or two after eliminating all unhealthy foods. My moods were 100% improved, and I no longer suffered from headaches. In fact, I would not be surprised at all if just about every physical aliment or disease we have are the result of poor diet/lifestyle and an over-prescribing pharmaceutical industry.

The body has an amazing capacity to heal and restore itself, and I can promise you that’s something the multi-billion dollar medical industry does not want you to know.

They are just as shady and money-hungry as any other big industry, and the last thing they want is for you to be healthy. Think about it.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to workout pretty frequently for a few years, alternating mass building and cutting cycles. And what I noticed was whenever I would "cut up" and eat very strictly (minimal carbs, low fat, no preservatives, no alcohol, etc.), every single physical ailment I suffered from, would almost immediately disappear.

My allergies would completely vanish, and my eczema would clear up in only a week or two after eliminating all unhealthy foods. My moods were 100% improved, and I no longer suffered from headaches. In fact, I would not be surprised at all if just about every physical aliment or disease we have are the result of poor diet/lifestyle and an over-prescribing pharmaceutical industry.

The body has an amazing capacity to heal and restore itself, and I can promise you that’s something the multi-billion dollar medical industry does not want you to know.

They are just as shady and money-hungry as any other big industry, and the last thing they want is for you to be healthy. Think about it.


[/ QUOTE ]
i don't know if this true, but this is exactly word for word how i feel.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
Here in Canada, doctors

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading right here.

[casinogosain]

There are a lot of different ideas in your original post, so I'll only comment on a few. I think that you (we) first need to realize that by reading that book (or any others like it) and thinking about how healthcare is delivered in the US, you are placing yourself in a very small minority.


[ QUOTE ]

All are backed up with references/studies. (the book itself references over 1700 studies)


[/ QUOTE ]
I can't comment on this any more than saying that I would have to read the book and read the references to see if his claims are actually suppporte by the referenced work. Without having read the book, I can't comment on this particular author, but it is not uncommon to find people misquoting previous works to prove their point. This is unfortunately true in all fields, including scientific research.

[ QUOTE ]
"In general, orthodox beliefs die slow, painful deaths. At the same time, the presumption of being mistaken automatically attches to those who dissent from widely accepted principles. Compounding the inertia of conventional thoughts that "experts" often have more difficulty than other admitting their mistakes because being wrong on a major issues would be viwed, by some, as invalidating their status of expert."

In other words, it is possible for a doctor to give incorrect advice to a patient knowing it is wrong, because it is the popular belief of his field

A doctor or scientist who dissenter's from the confines of the intellecual community by disavowing the offical dogma ricks being branded as a quack.

He goes on to give the example of Galileo and 5-6 more. Even a recent "breakthrough" in heart disease treatment which was originated back in the 70's, but only now is accepted as fact. This is the part where I start reading the book like a madman, only 1 in 10,000 americans live to be over 100, I want to be one of them.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think that the author may be mixing two separate fields here. I think that this is probably a valid statement when examining scientists (although probably more valid in the past when the penalty for disagreement was death). The danger in this sort of dissent in the modern age is losing funding or not getting funding for your research.

The big distinction to be made here is that most physicians are not scientists. Most physicians rely on their medical school educations and continuing medical education activities to learn what to do, and practice that which is considered "standard of care." The penalty for not doing this is adverse outcomes and malpractice lawsuits. The minority of physicians, those that are physician-scientists (clinical or basic science), are those that perceive that the "standard of care" may not be the best approach and devise a study or experiments to figure out what a better approach may be.

[ QUOTE ]

Part of the problem is that nowhere in the world can one earn an advanced degree denoting experience in health promotion and disease prevention.



[/ QUOTE ]
False. There are an abundance of Public Health schools around the world, most affiliated with major teaching hospitals and universities. Additionally, there is a speciality of medicine, called Preventive Medicine, which focuses on this area in particular.


[ QUOTE ]
Upon beginning medical school, students are indoctrinated into a view of health care devoid any concept of the meaning of health or how to promote it. It is largely for this reason doctors more readily prescribe expensive drugs of questional efficacy bearing adverse side effects than recommend cheap, harmless nutrients which are proven to reduce risk factors for deadly diseases

I think in some cases this is true. When I was younger and overweight I suffered from back problems. I went to my doctor and he prescribed me some pain drugs and recommended I take it easy for a while..I did this and suffered for months, then suddently I joined a gym started to eat right, lost over 100ibs and now I have zero pain in my back, or anywhere else for that matter. My doctor's recommendation should of been to get my fat ass off the couch and learn how to fuel my body correctly. Nope, drugs for me.



[/ QUOTE ]
You had a sub-optimal doctor. But look at it from the other side. As part of my residency training I worked with a neurosurgeon who was referred a large number of patients for back pain. He would walk in the room, look at the patient, and hand them a prescription that said "Lose 100 pounds", tell them they're fat, and then walk out. There is probably a happy medium to be reached.

[ QUOTE ]

I have dated a PA (Physicians assistant) and you would not believe how much money they make for every surgery/procedure they do. Doctors would make very little money if everyone was healthy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Restaurants would make very little money if we didn't eat. Most professionals would make very little money if there was no call for their profession.

As I said at the beginning, by sparking a though process in you, this book has done some good. There are unfortunately very few people that take the time to think about what is wrong with how health care is structured/delivered in America, and even fewer who want to get involved in changing it. I think that one of the largest problems is that we have become to coddled as a people. Nobody wants to be told that they can't have pain medicine for their backache because what they really need is to lose the weight. They'd rather get the quick fix now, and deal with the long-term consequences when they arise.

I have more to say, but I'll save it for later.

-Ash

[renodoc]

[ QUOTE ]
They are just as shady and money-hungry as any other big industry, and the last thing they want is for you to be healthy. Think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'm not sure who the "they" is you are referring to. If its MD's then I feel sorry for you and invite you to spend a day shadowing me so you can gain some insight.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They are just as shady and money-hungry as any other big industry, and the last thing they want is for you to be healthy. Think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'm not sure who the "they" is you are referring to. If its MD's then I feel sorry for you and invite you to spend a day shadowing me so you can gain some insight.

[/ QUOTE ]

"They" as in the industry as a whole. And no thanks.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
i didn't even read this but i know this is why my grandpa told me to tell colonol radley to not to give into the the [censored]' vietcong and that we may be prisoner's but we ain't given them any information, they are just gonna have to kill us first.

true story. it was yesterday.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kept this watch up my ass for two years. And now, I give it to you.

[sexdrugsmoney]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I used to workout pretty frequently for a few years, alternating mass building and cutting cycles. And what I noticed was whenever I would "cut up" and eat very strictly (minimal carbs, low fat, no preservatives, no alcohol, etc.), every single physical ailment I suffered from, would almost immediately disappear.

My allergies would completely vanish, and my eczema would clear up in only a week or two after eliminating all unhealthy foods. My moods were 100% improved, and I no longer suffered from headaches. In fact, I would not be surprised at all if just about every physical aliment or disease we have are the result of poor diet/lifestyle and an over-prescribing pharmaceutical industry.

The body has an amazing capacity to heal and restore itself, and I can promise you that’s something the multi-billion dollar medical industry does not want you to know.

They are just as shady and money-hungry as any other big industry, and the last thing they want is for you to be healthy. Think about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup + they profit off current diseases.

As Chris Rock said, they're still pissed about all the money they have lost from curing Polio.

[renodoc]

I offered....

[LethalRose]

Im definately still skeptical about this section of the book, but everything else is gold. One of the reasons im so quick to believe this guy is a lot of stuff in the book are things i have learned myself through trial and error, etc..

Also, is preventive medicine available as an advanced degree? Can you major in it? he is kinda vague on this issues. Its not really that big of a concern.

a lot of the quotes I gave have huge gaps in them where he shows examples and explains his thinking, i just didnt post them.

I do think its an interesting book and definetly thought provoking, but im trying to decide whether or not he is simply trying to point out how doctors are taught or if he is trying to imply that doctors dont tread patients to prevent disease because they will miss out on prescription money, etc..

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
i didn't even read this but i know this is why my grandpa told me to tell colonol radley to not to give into the the [censored]' vietcong and that we may be prisoner's but we ain't given them any information, they are just gonna have to kill us first.

true story. it was yesterday.

[/ QUOTE ]

more stories. this is much better than OP.

[Matt Flynn]

We all know the cure for cancer too. We're keeping it from you so we can profit off your slow, lingering death.


What about:

Put your baby in a carseat in the back.
Wear a helmet.
Wear a seatbelt.
Stop smoking.
Reduce sun exposure or wear sunscreen.
Lose weight. And no, the doctor's not going to say that every time. What do you think fat people will do? Ya think they will keep going to doctors?

Reduce your blood pressure.
Reduce stress.
Exercise.
Keep your cholesterol low.
Take aspirin to prevent heart disease if in a risk category.
Eat a varied diet with lots of fruit and vegetables.
Get your mammogram / colonoscopy / skin cancer screening / PSA and prostate exam when appropriate.
Get an annual exam.

Any of that sound familiar?


That author is painfully wrong, except for the expensive drug part. Advertising works, and the pharma industry spends a tremendous amount of money getting docs to prescribe marginally beneficial expensive therapies. Frankly, a lot of docs are chumps in that regard. But no different from the rest of the world falling for ads. Some of the rest is just magical thinking: "If I just eat right, I won't get sick." Well, bad beats happen. That's just the way it is. All you can do is increase your number of outs, and not by nearly as many as most would like to believe. No matter how much broccoli you eat, life can still suck.

[ QUOTE ]
We all know the cure for cancer too. We're keeping it from you so we can profit off your slow, lingering death.


What about:

Put your baby in a carseat in the back.


Wear a helmet.
Wear a seatbelt.
Stop smoking.
Reduce sun exposure or wear sunscreen.
Lose weight. And no, the doctor's not going to say that every time. What do you think fat people will do? Ya think they will keep going to doctors?

Reduce your blood pressure.
Reduce stress.
Exercise.
Keep your cholesterol low.
Take aspirin to prevent heart disease if in a risk category.
Eat a varied diet with lots of fruit and vegetables.
Get your mammogram / colonoscopy / skin cancer screening / PSA and prostate exam when appropriate.
Get an annual exam.

Any of that sound familiar?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and who the hell's gonna do any of that /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Cigarette companies tell you that smoking is bad for you too.

Seriously though, a lot of those examples are common sense not exclusive to the medical industry. The rest are just more product pitches or invites to appointments to make more product pitches.

Although I really admire the subtlety in clumping them all together.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We all know the cure for cancer too. We're keeping it from you so we can profit off your slow, lingering death.


What about:

Put your baby in a carseat in the back.


Wear a helmet.
Wear a seatbelt.
Stop smoking.
Reduce sun exposure or wear sunscreen.
Lose weight. And no, the doctor's not going to say that every time. What do you think fat people will do? Ya think they will keep going to doctors?

Reduce your blood pressure.
Reduce stress.
Exercise.
Keep your cholesterol low.
Take aspirin to prevent heart disease if in a risk category.
Eat a varied diet with lots of fruit and vegetables.
Get your mammogram / colonoscopy / skin cancer screening / PSA and prostate exam when appropriate.
Get an annual exam.

Any of that sound familiar?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and who the hell's gonna do any of that /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.


[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though, a lot of those examples are common sense not exclusive to the medical industry. The rest are just more product pitches or invites to appointments to make more product pitches.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most became "common knowledge" only because medical research identified it and active campaigning by medical groups made it known. Even losing weight, reducing stress and eating a varied diet only became widely held "truths" after substantiation by a lot of medical studies.

Doctors almost universally do not make money off of antihypertensives and cholesterol lowering agents. They prescribe them but do not sell them. Also, for affected individuals those drugs substantially increase life expectancy, pretty much as "preventive" as you can get. And, yes, diet and exercise are usually recommended first.

[7ontheline]

I don't know what to say, other than that I always try to counsel my patients to maintain their general health because it's so much easier than having to see one of us MDs to fix something that could have been prevented. Books like this generally misrepresent things and rely on a lot of selective information. Believe what you want.

[LethalRose]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what to say, other than that I always try to counsel my patients to maintain their general health because it's so much easier than having to see one of us MDs to fix something that could have been prevented. Books like this generally misrepresent things and rely on a lot of selective information. Believe what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question, if a patient of yours wants to lose weight what kind of diet do you recommend in terms of macronutrient intake, low fat high carbs? high fat no carbs? etc...

just curious

[radek2166]

Medicine in america in a sad sad state. Do you know why?

[LethalRose]

[ QUOTE ]
Medicine in america in a sad sad state. Do you know why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I touch myself at night?

[radek2166]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Medicine in america in a sad sad state. Do you know why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I touch myself at night?

[/ QUOTE ]

hell i touch myself whenever the need arises.


I have worked in health care for 12 years.

Lawyers. Thaats 1 big reason. A doctor looks at said pt.
Says "hey fat ass get of your fat ass and work out abit."

Said pt calls said lawyer and boom. lawsuit

[JonPKibble]

[ QUOTE ]
Medicine in america in a sad sad state. Do you know why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the FDA and FTC are corrupt?

[Cosimo]

If you want to know more along this line of thought, read the articles &amp;c published by the
Weston A Price Foundation (http://www.westonaprice.org/splash_2.htm).

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question, if a patient of yours wants to lose weight what kind of diet do you recommend in terms of macronutrient intake, low fat high carbs? high fat no carbs? etc...

just curious

[/ QUOTE ]

What about micronutrients? Are synthetic vitamins just as effective as those found in whole foods? Is it possible that my symptoms could be complicated by a lack of minerals?

From what I've read, MD's barely get any information about nutrition in med school. Individual doctors want us to be healthy, but I think the criticism in the book is not about those individuals, but rather the way the system works. There's money in prescribing drugs; there's not much money (for doctors or pharmaceutical companies) if your patients eat healthy. Besides, who wants to eat healthy? Taco Bell is so much more convenient.

[beernutz]

I bought and read Rob Faigin's book Natural Hormonal Enhancement when it first came out in 2000. It is essentially a cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD) with some lifestyle recommendations. Despite the overwhelming number of references I don't believe he has written anything 'revolutionary'. I tried his system for about 6 months and had moderate fat-loss but less-than-spectacular strength gains. I certainly didn't end up looking like the pictures he has of himself in his book.

I've also been a member of the NHE yahoo group for many years. If you want to discuss the NHE book and 'lifestyle' that would be a good place to start. I think a much better sourse of information for me were the forums at http://www.c-k-d.com/ . I dropped from 20% bodyfat to around 13% doing a CKD over about 5 months and I actually gained strength in the process.

HTH.