Foxwoods 2/4: $10 an hour? (kinda long)

[34TheTruth34]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this or not. A friend of mine is brand new to learning poker. His learning poker has surprisingly helped to invigorate my interest in poker. I had been kind of burned out this year and not played all that much (and, of course, have not played all that well when I have played), but it has been exciting to get back into it. I had also stopped playing live poker and this gave me an excuse to go back to Foxwoods.

He started in the 2/4. For those of you familiar with Foxwoods, you know that this is the lowest game in the house. It is a virtual limpfest. As a matter of fact, it was not uncommon to have a hand where he and I were the ONLY ONES WHO FOLDED PREFLOP! (that's happened about 10-15 times in four sessions!) It is loaded with weak playing loose passive people, a lot of whom are senior citizens. It's an amazing game. I was wondering if it is possible to average $10 an hour in the game. The players are so amazingly bad, but with the high rake, horrible dealers, and tipping, I think it's probably not possible. But who knows? What do you guys think?


So anyway, I've started him reading the two Ed Miller books. He bought TOP on his own and started reading it. He said there was some confusing stuff in it. I explained to him that it was probably a little too advanced for him and that he should just put it on the bookshelf and go back to it later.

So he's read the 2 books and has played about 20 or so live hours and isn't doing too bad. He's down about $1 an hour so far. What really excites me is that when he makes mistakes, they tend to be because he's played a hand too aggressively. This has to be a great sign, as I'd much rather see him making an extra bet or raise instead of checking and calling too much.

There was a hand where he had flopped a set of sixes with three opponents in until the river. The river card came putting 4 cards to a straight and 4 diamonds on the board. A guy donkbet into him and he autoraised. Everyone else folded. The guy reluctantly called. My friend showed his set, the guy flashed KT for top pair and my friend won it. That was amazing.

We have been sitting next to each other and showing each other our hands when we're not in and on the ride home been talking about hands. He's really into this and learning. At what point do you guys think I should introduce 2+2 and get him started into online poker? I think he'd lose it all right now, so I think I should wait a little while.

Here are a couple of hands that I played badly:

Hand 1:

I limp behind four limpers in LP with black 99. Like 7 way action.

Flop 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif-4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif-5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

A loose passive playing lady bets in EP, I raise, two people call, she calls. 4 way.

Turn 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

To my surprise, she donkbets into me. I call, button calls, EP folds. Three way.

River 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

She checks, I bet, button folds, she calls.




Hand 2:

Three limpers, a near-maniacal LAGtard raised on the button (he's raised preflop the last 4 or 5 hands and played very aggressively), I three-bet out of the SB with A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif, he caps, we all call, like 5 or 6 way action.

Flop A-3-3 rainbow. Checked all the way to him, he bets, I raise, one player stays in, he three-bets, we call.

Turn Q. We check, he bets, I call, other guy folds.

River A. I bet, he instantly auto-raises, I just call because we are obviously splitting the pot.


Thoughts?


so, is $10 an hour possible? So far my session log is:

5h -175 (see...uh...what had happened...)
4h +123
5h +172
4.5h +30

18.5h +150 +8.11/hr


I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts. If this is interesting to you guys, I'll keep it up. If not, I won't update. Let me know...

[rmarotti]

Get him started now. Losing it all is a good learning experience.

[BigEndian]

I seriously doubt $10/hr is possible. The rake and slow dealing just kills it no matter how bad the players are.

He may lose it all playing online, but I'm sure you know there's no substitute for experience. Nothing gives you more hand experience than playing online. I was sitting next to a pro last time I was in Vegas that was lamenting how so many strong-playing kids were sitting down now due to internet poker. The learning curve has simply been accelerated in an amazing manner due to how many hands can be played online.

The drawback to playing online is I've seen a couple of people play rather than read. Playing gives you experience, but reading gives you the foundation to start with. If your friend does play online, caution him about letting it overtake his reading.

- Jim

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2:

Three limpers, a near-maniacal LAGtard raised on the button (he's raised preflop the last 4 or 5 hands and played very aggressively), I three-bet out of the SB with A J , he caps, we all call, like 5 or 6 way action.

Flop A-3-3 rainbow. Checked all the way to him, he bets, I raise, one player stays in, he three-bets, we call.

Turn Q. We check, he bets, I call, other guy folds.

River A. I bet, he instantly auto-raises, I just call because we are obviously splitting the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Cap it. If im not mistaken Foxwoods rake is not taken out of each pot...its taken every 30 minutes.

[deception5]

If you are afraid of him going broke online have him start at low stakes. PokerStars .02/.04 has some half decent players (far better than the ones you are describing). He can go broke several times and it won't be an issue. And he can track his stats in PT and move up when he's showing he can beat the game.

$10 per hour is a very difficult objective unless you are in a very aggressive game or you win monster pots without getting trapped. To illustrate, last weekend I was in a very bad 2/4 game where I won $285 in 9 hours. The following day, in a game with four other good players, I made $65 in the same 9 hour period.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are afraid of him going broke online have him start at low stakes. PokerStars .02/.04 has some half decent players (far better than the ones you are describing). He can go broke several times and it won't be an issue. And he can track his stats in PT and move up when he's showing he can beat the game.




[/ QUOTE ]


didnt think about that. thanks, maybe i will start him there.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap it. If im not mistaken Foxwoods rake is not taken out of each pot...its taken every 30 minutes.



[/ QUOTE ]

not in limit games.

I just called his raise because it was obvious we were chopping. He rolled KQ. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
$10 per hour is a very difficult objective

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe so, but they play reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal bad

[bryan4967]

Get him started but ease him into it.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$10 per hour is a very difficult objective

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe so, but they play reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal bad

[/ QUOTE ]

In limit holdem no matter how bad someone plays they almost always cant make a mistake that costs more than 1 bet, and rarely can they make one that actually is worth -1.00. There is a limit to a theoretical winrate since you still do need to showdown the best hand. In your specific situation you are also paying an absurd rake. Anyone who makes $10 an hour there is either a liar or an idiot who should be playing higher.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2:

Three limpers, a near-maniacal LAGtard raised on the button (he's raised preflop the last 4 or 5 hands and played very aggressively), I three-bet out of the SB with A J , he caps, we all call, like 5 or 6 way action.

Flop A-3-3 rainbow. Checked all the way to him, he bets, I raise, one player stays in, he three-bets, we call.

Turn Q. We check, he bets, I call, other guy folds.

River A. I bet, he instantly auto-raises, I just call because we are obviously splitting the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Cap it. If im not mistaken Foxwoods rake is not taken out of each pot...its taken every 30 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every 30 minutes in NL. But in low limits they automatically take rake from every pot. At 4-8 they take 2 dollars out no matter what, and then 10% up to 4 dollars.

[MyTurn2Raise]

$5/hr at best. You're talking 35 hands/hour, dealer tokes (unless your friend is a tightwad; Then, they'll treat him bad), and a high rake. It sucks and is not feasible. Beat the 4/8 or 5/10 and it's like working walmart. 2/4...go on welfare

[JTMoney42]

Beating a low limit game like this is very hard/impossible depending on the amount of rake. The calculations I came up with to justify this is as follows.

Say you win 1.5 BB/Hour which is generous at best, so you play for 8 hours in a session and you're up on average say $48 dollars per session, and for simplicities sake you win 1 pot an hour or just 8 total pots either way. And they take the near max for each pot. So in this case you're being raked $40ish (10% 5 max) so the rake is accounting for about half of your entire winnings(40/88). So I think if you can find a 2/4 game that has a smaller rake, say a 3 max(I don't know if these exist outside of the internet) then obviously 2/4 is very beatable, but I don't think you can outrun the rake at this limit in the long run.

Note: This doesn't include any Bad Beat Jackpots dollars, tipping etc.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who makes $10 an hour there is either a liar or an idiot who should be playing higher.



[/ QUOTE ]

I never claimed that I have or could make $10/hr. It may not have been obvious from the original post, but I regularly play in and beat limits much, much higher than 2/4 both live and online. I am only sitting in it to help my friend who is brand new to poker and is starting at the lowest limit in the house. So the question isn't whether or not anyone "should" be playing higher, just whether or not an expert player could make $10 an hour in a really good 2/4 game loaded with bad playing low limit players. Clearly, I understand that sitting in the Foxwoods 2/4 isn't the most profitable way to make money for me or the best use of my time...

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
$5/hr at best

[/ QUOTE ]

my long-run winrate HAS to be higher than this, no?

[MyTurn2Raise]

don't know...I'm from Illinois where, for all its negatives, commonly start the low limit at 5/10. Oh Oh Oh...so juicy at a 5/10. But, I know $25/hr wasn't possible there. I think $15/hr at best....that equals $6/hr at 2/4. I might have been harsh at $5/hr estimate, but it's to get the point across that this is a bad idea.