Aces cracked

[avandelay]

Typical 1/2 PP

I'm UTG+1 where I pick up AA

UTG limps in, I raise, folded around to the BB who call as does UTG

Flop: 6 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Checked around to me, I decide to let it go and bet the turn.

Turn: 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

OK that removes the flush as a possibility

Checked to me again. this time I bet, both call

River: 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

UTG bets (could he really have been playing for the gut shot draw?), I raise, UTG raises (yup), I call.

UTG turns over 77 for the straight.

Was this poor play or bad luck?

[Bob T.]

Poor play. You allowed him a chance to get a reasonable draw for free. Once he had the draw, he was getting good enough odds on his money, that he was actually making theorhetical money by calling your turn bet. He would call the turn bet, even if he knew what you had. Then after you let him get there cheap, you paid extra on the river to make sure that he was pair well for his draw.

[avandelay]

Sure, when you put it like that it seems obvious /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks very much for the critique, I certainly need it.

[Ralle]

I think you should have just called on the river. They showed weakness when you checked the flop, and they still didn't bet the turn. Then when a lower card comes on the river, he suddenly bets. If he tried a desperate bluff, he probably wouldn't call your raise. Otherwise the 4 must have helped him somehow. Two pair isn't likely, since he limped UTG. If he's loose he could've limped with A4s, but wouldn't he bet the turn in that case? With 44 in the pocket he would probably not have called your turn bet. So a straight actually seems likely, maybe he could have 76s, 87s, 97s or 77. Maybe he would even play K7s? It all depends on how loose he plays.

[Bob T.]

The really funny thing, here, is this exact situation happened to me yesterday, but I was the villain. A bunch of limpers, SB completes, and I check my suited T4 in the big blind.

Flop comes AJ4, with the Ace of my suit. Checked around.

Turn, 5 of my suit, SB bets, I call, everybody calls, loose cannon raises, SB three bets, and we all call. River is 2 of my suit, putting a 4 straight on the board. SB bets, I raise, and they all call.

Anyway, the SB had pocket AA, that he slowplayed preflop, and on the flop, so that he could win a big pot. Instead, the hand history showed that he came in last place, because everyone else still in had the straight, and I won about a 25 big bet pot, that I might not have seen the flop on, and certainly wouldn't have seen the turn, if I had to face a bet.

Slowplaying, especially in multiway pots, can be expensive.

[Eric P]

the river raise seems foolish. Just like ralle says. he makes all the right points here.

[Ed Miller]

The reason I don't like your play is a little different from the reason that the others don't like it. What hand do you raise with preflop and then check behind on that flop? That's right, only AA. I don't like to play any hand on the flop such that it's obvious exactly what my hand is... the flop is too early to reveal your hand. You can get hurt too badly on the big bet streets when you give up so much information on the flop.

[CrackerZack]

wasn't a gut shot after you gave him a free look at the turn which gave him an open-ender. Bet this flop. Its two tone and make any flush draw pay. A straight draw on the flop seems unlikely (maybe gutshot with T9) but with the flush draw being out there, bet it. Don't worry about looking too obvious, by checking it looks too obvious I think. Last night I raised first in UTG+1 with AsQs a cold-caller, then 3-bet from LP, button calls all 3 and BB calls as do I and the limper. Flop comes KdJd3h, it gets checked around. He's now one off the button after 3-betting, what could he possibly have that he could check? Only a monster. checking here made his hand more obvious than betting (although I would've folded anyway). He did get called by on person on the turn and river and showed his set of Ks. You should be betting KK,QQ,JJ,TT or any A big kicker hand in this spot, the only thing that I could see checking was something like KQs or QJs if you hit none of your suit and were planning on folding. But if that were the case you shouldn't have raised preflop with those hands. IMO, checking gives away your hand more than betting. On the turn even if he knows you have a set of Aces, he's getting 5-1 on his 4-1 shot (may be less if the BB is on a flush draw) so he calls and he played the river well.

[CrackerZack]

I agree. I could've saved myself posting if I had read this before posting myself. Although I think the point that the board is two-tone makes a bet even more a necessity. No giving infinite odds on draws.

[bernie]

he may have been destined to lose the hand anyways. and if anyone was calling with only the gutshot on the turn, he made a ton off of them. especially making them put in 3 bets.
also, depending on how many players were in, your call of 2 bets may have been close since you, in hindsight, only had 7 outs at most. i wouldve called too, but it's something to consider.

this will sometimes happen when you play a hand this way. it doesnt mean you should never play this way. itd be a different post if the board paired as it made the flush.

b

[gunbuster]

I think you should have bet the flop. If you had AK, you would have bet the flop. Now that you check the flop after an UTG+1 raise, tho things happen, either I think you have QK or maybe JJ (that you should bet anyway), or you are sandbagging with your AA - in any event, he pretty much knows what you have. You give away the free card, and the guy picks up the open-ender. I think he's getting proper pot-odds, $8.50 for a $2 call, which is reasonably close to an open ended draw, plus if he thinks you have a AK, QQ, KK, he has 2 more outs w/ his 7's.

If you bet the flop, he probably doesn't have the proper odds to chase, having only 3 to a straight. Even if he puts you on AK, AQ, he wouldn't be right to call here.

[Homer]

If your opponent's have brain cells they will know you have AA when you check behind on the flop.

Notice that there is no way the player with the 7 would have called the flop had you bet.

Don't raise the river.

-- Homer

[biggambler]

AA are always the best hand before the flop. They were still the best after this flop. If you want to slowplay them thats ok, but dont cry when someone catches up.You can win a little pot now or maybe, win a bigger pot later. You are increasing your chances of losing the pot later. The choice is yours.

[biggambler]

Couldn't someone raise preflop with KQ of spades and then check when the flop has an Ace no spades and two hearts?

[Homer]

Yeah, but even then I typically bet when checked to against only two opponents. You only have to fold them both 1/7 or 1/8 times to make it a +EV bet.

It doesn't matter if you have an Ace or not as long as they don't and think that you do.

-- Homer

[CrackerZack]

If they're planning on check-folding this hand after the flop, don't raise it pre-flop from EP. The raise pre-flop gives you the chance win it with a flop bet, if you're not gonna do that, limp and let others in behind you.

[Nottom]

Not betting the flop here is a huge mistake. I don't know if it would have won you the pot, but you need to bet and give the people with bad draws the chance to make a mistake.

Also, how does the 5c change the fact that there are still 2 diamonds on the board?

[avandelay]

Also, how does the 5c change the fact that there are still 2 diamonds on the board?

I forgot to mention that this was a new form of poker where you needed six of one suit for a flush. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Just add that mis-observation to what I now see was an unmitigated disaster of a hand.

[Low Limits]

Learn from your mistakes. I made a very similar mistake and posted it on the site. Since then, I've NEVER checked any type of set on the flop (unless it's a full house or I plan to check-raise the flop). In low limit, my philosophy is to put as much money in when you're in the lead and make everyone else pay for the draws. It's worked for me and I think that letting people have a free card is a big mistake in this situation.