worst. river. ever. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

bakku

09-29-2005, 11:01 PM

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

BB has TAG stats and seems to play well, but only been a couple orbits so far
UTG is loose passive
MP unknown

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG calls, MP 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

River: (16 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero?

what to do?

baronzeus

09-29-2005, 11:05 PM

check/fold unless it goes bet fold fold to you

scotty34

09-29-2005, 11:08 PM

Check and see what unfolds.

Catt

09-29-2005, 11:09 PM

Check and probably fold. Any caller of a bet and fold. A lone bet and perhaps call. Usually fold.

B Dids

09-29-2005, 11:11 PM

Move up to a limit where these fish fold?

If somebody bet and I was going to be the only caller, the pot is kinda large...

bakku

09-29-2005, 11:19 PM

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A lone bet and perhaps call. Usually fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean it depends on who is betting?

bakku

09-29-2005, 11:19 PM

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Move up to a limit where these fish fold?

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i dabble in 10/20 6m too!

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If somebody bet and I was going to be the only caller, the pot is kinda large...

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does it matter who bets?

baronzeus

09-29-2005, 11:40 PM

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A lone bet and perhaps call. Usually fold.

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Do you mean it depends on who is betting?

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yes.

Catt

09-29-2005, 11:59 PM

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A lone bet and perhaps call. Usually fold.

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Do you mean it depends on who is betting?

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Yeah. I call BB's bet if the others fold; he has a bunch of overpairs in addition to the possible A, and a TAG is likely to interpret the check as an opportunity to win the pot by representing an A even when he doesn't have it. I never call the LPP in MP or the unknown who 3-bet for a freecard on the flop.

bakku

09-30-2005, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lone bet and perhaps call. Usually fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean it depends on who is betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I call BB's bet if the others fold; he has a bunch of overpairs in addition to the possible A, and a TAG is likely to interpret the check as an opportunity to win the pot by representing an A even when he doesn't have it. I never call the LPP in MP or the unknown who 3-bet for a freecard on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with what you wrote about the BB (especially since he's still relatively unknown to me) and the loose passive, but i disagree with the unknown. i think he has a made hand on the flop or a 3 often enough to call if he bets.

no one has anything to say about betting the river?

Catt

09-30-2005, 12:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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A lone bet and perhaps call. Usually fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean it depends on who is betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I call BB's bet if the others fold; he has a bunch of overpairs in addition to the possible A, and a TAG is likely to interpret the check as an opportunity to win the pot by representing an A even when he doesn't have it. I never call the LPP in MP or the unknown who 3-bet for a freecard on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with what you wrote about the BB (especially since he's still relatively unknown to me) and the loose passive, but i disagree with the unknown. i think he has a made hand on the flop or a 3 often enough to call if he bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with calling the unknown's bet is that you have two guys to act behind you. Granted, the checks make it less likely that one of them has an A, and the last position bet makes it more likely he's taking a stab with a worse hand, but you've still got to account for action behind you, especially if LPP is really passive. I'm also less convinced that there's a large enough range of hands the unknown plays with a 3 in hand that is confident enough to 3-bet the flop after a lead and PFR raise. I'd personally stay away from calling the LP's bet.

bakku

09-30-2005, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lone bet and perhaps call. Usually fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean it depends on who is betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I call BB's bet if the others fold; he has a bunch of overpairs in addition to the possible A, and a TAG is likely to interpret the check as an opportunity to win the pot by representing an A even when he doesn't have it. I never call the LPP in MP or the unknown who 3-bet for a freecard on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with what you wrote about the BB (especially since he's still relatively unknown to me) and the loose passive, but i disagree with the unknown. i think he has a made hand on the flop or a 3 often enough to call if he bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with calling the unknown's bet is that you have two guys to act behind you. Granted, the checks make it less likely that one of them has an A, and the last position bet makes it more likely he's taking a stab with a worse hand, but you've still got to account for action behind you, especially if LPP is really passive. I'm also less convinced that there's a large enough range of hands the unknown plays with a 3 in hand that is confident enough to 3-bet the flop after a lead and PFR raise. I'd personally stay away from calling the LP's bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

once BB or MP checks this river when i've been the aggressor the whole way i'm not worried about them at all, they'd be crazy to go for a c/r and even a LPP is betting an A. i'm also getting 17:1 on unknown's bet, i only need to be ahead like almost never.

Catt

09-30-2005, 01:28 AM

Yeah - I'm open to calling unknown's bet. I'm not sure it's +EV despite the pot size; not sure it's - EV. The fact that he's last to act and checked to on the river 4-handed means a lot. I'd certainly do so if finding I folded the best hand would disturb me greatly. I think if he's got a 3 in his hand then it is most likely 33, but of course unknowns lip with hands like Q3s often enough; I think that one of these guys (LPP or unknown) has an A; I've seen a passive guy check an A in hands like this enough to think about it when he's yet to act behind me. Sounds like MUBS, I know, but I don't think looking at it here on the forum makes it a clear call (if it's really close, I think of it as really close, and don't look at it as a 16 BB decision). In the heat of the moment, I probably call it from unknown, but I'm not really thrilled with it when I review the session, whether I win the hand or not.

bakku

09-30-2005, 11:00 PM

river gets checked around. BB has QQ, UTG has K3o and MP has 5h3h, i win

a couple 2p2ers said bet/fold the river and i think that may be better than checking.

Catt

09-30-2005, 11:22 PM

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a couple 2p2ers said bet/fold the river and i think that may be better than checking.

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What is the argument for betting the river from these 2+2ers? Doesn't seem like this is a good play though I'm certainly open to understanding why others like a bet here.

baronzeus

09-30-2005, 11:23 PM

jason_t

10-01-2005, 12:36 AM

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a couple 2p2ers said bet/fold the river and i think that may be better than checking.

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What is the argument for betting the river from these 2+2ers? Doesn't seem like this is a good play though I'm certainly open to understanding why others like a bet here.

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bakku AIMed me this hand yesterday before posting it. I told him to bet/fold.

There are many worse hands that will call in this large pot but none is going to bet. No one will raise this river with a hand that bakku beats.

bet/fold for value.

TStoneMBD

10-01-2005, 12:49 AM

why are you betting this flop when you could be checkraising?

Catt

10-01-2005, 01:00 AM

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No one will raise this river with a hand that bakku beats.

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I don't agree with this. I also think that the chance you're beat is greater than you believe. Maybe this is where my disconnect comes from.

jason_t

10-01-2005, 01:02 AM

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No one will raise this river with a hand that bakku beats.

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I don't agree with this. I also think that the chance you're beat is greater than you believe. Maybe this is where my disconnect comes from.

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You think someone will raise the river with less than a straight?

Catt

10-01-2005, 01:25 AM

I think it unlikely but certainly possible. I think a TAG on our left (like BB) could do so without a straight. I think a guy who limps 53s in MP could do so when he hits two-pair. I think a LAGgro could do so on a scare card in a big pot. I've seen them do it, even multiway; I know they can. I just don't know how often they do it.

bakku

10-01-2005, 01:33 AM

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why are you betting this flop when you could be checkraising?

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because i get to 3-bet most of the time + the lineup i'm up aginst

Lmn55d

10-01-2005, 01:56 AM

I think Catt is also saying that if you check, you will be able to fold without investing a bet a decent amount of time. Out of the times it doesn't go bet/raise (after you check), it will be bet for you a lot anyway.

Catt

10-01-2005, 02:39 AM

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I think Catt is also saying that if you check, you will be able to fold without investing a bet a decent amount of time. Out of the times it doesn't go bet/raise (after you check), it will be bet for you a lot anyway.

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Yup. Though I'm admittedly calling infrequently on this river -- I need no overcallers and a bet from one (maybe two) of the specific opponents.