9Ts UTG

[gildwulf]

I just saw a 2+2 stat (27/18) raise 9Ts UTG. Is this standard for anyone and why?

Edit: this was at 5/10, btw.

[jason_t]

In the 3/6 6m game and the 5/10 6m tables I've played, that's terrible. Investing two bets OOP with 9Ts is surely a leak.

[GetThere1Time]

Standard, no. It sure looks like the nuts when I'm tilting though. (I don't think that was me)

Its pure shania, thats all.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I just saw a 2+2 stat (27/18) raise 9Ts UTG. Is this standard for anyone and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do it occasionally.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
In the 3/6 6m game and the 5/10 6m tables I've played, that's terrible. Investing two bets OOP with 9Ts is surely a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wayyyyyyyyy too rigid on preflop strategy homie.

[gildwulf]

That's what I thought. It definitely threw me off though...

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the 3/6 6m game and the 5/10 6m tables I've played, that's terrible. Investing two bets OOP with 9Ts is surely a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wayyyyyyyyy too rigid on preflop strategy homie.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the games I play, I think if you're going to do it regularly it's a leak. 3/6 6m isn't really about Shania and so on. Maybe in your games it is.

Maybe "terrible" is an exaggeration, but I think it's bad and should be a standard fold and only raised from time to time, particularly in the presence of observant opponents.

No game is purely about it. But the idea is that even semi observant opponents will go "hey he raised 910 utg, wtf?" and they will think you are retarded. Thats a good thing.

[gildwulf]

I play 5/10, not 3/6.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I play 5/10, not 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how many observant opponents there are in that game, but my experiences are that it's loose enough that I don't want be OOP for two bets with that hand unless I know that it will somehow benefit me later.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
No game is purely about it. But the idea is that even semi observant opponents will go "hey he raised 910 utg, wtf?" and they will think you are retarded. Thats a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just word-for-word described me and my reaction at the table.

[Catt]

I do this sometimes. I do it with 87s every so often. I did this at 5/10 and I do it at 10/20. These are great hands to show down when you hit a flop worthy of a showdown. It's not a standard raise.

[gildwulf]

I guess it's great for deception...I had KK, flop came Q99 and I put him on AQ or KQ...

[TheMetetron]

JTs is standard for me.

T9s... meh, I've never done it but I might consider it at the right table.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just saw a 2+2 stat (27/18) raise 9Ts UTG. Is this standard for anyone and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do it occasionally.

[/ QUOTE ]

As will I. I have even done 89s from time to time.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
JTs is standard for me.

T9s... meh, I've never done it but I might consider it at the right table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even JTs seems a little loose for me and I play around 27/18...maybe I need to loosen up under the gun.

[Trix]

I just looked, I´ve raised it half the time I´ve gotten it, which means 6/12 in a run of 35K hands, so there is no way this can be a leak and tbh, I dont raise it for deception, I think it´s a pos EV play when I do and I´d prolly open more often with it in 5/10 or lower as people play worse.

I´m perfectly fine with 4 ways for 2 bets or such against players who calls with crap and make huge mistakes after the flop.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JTs is standard for me.

T9s... meh, I've never done it but I might consider it at the right table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even JTs seems a little loose for me and I play around 27/18...maybe I need to loosen up under the gun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 28/22, so take that FWIW.

[billyjex]

i usually raise JTs utg and am 23/16. But I suck and probably am fairly incosistent with my preflop actions.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I just looked, I´ve raised it half the time I´ve gotten it, which means 6/12 in a run of 35K hands, so there is no way this can be a leak and tbh, I dont raise it for deception, I think it´s a pos EV play when I do and I´d prolly open more often with it in 5/10 or lower as people play worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not limp with it on tables where you think it's +EV to play it UTG? Raising clears some of the crap they play like T8o, 79s, etc and leaves you with Q9s, ATo etc.

[Trix]

Adding or removing a few suited hands UTG will change your vpip very little.

[Entity]

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[ QUOTE ]
I just looked, I´ve raised it half the time I´ve gotten it, which means 6/12 in a run of 35K hands, so there is no way this can be a leak and tbh, I dont raise it for deception, I think it´s a pos EV play when I do and I´d prolly open more often with it in 5/10 or lower as people play worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not limp with it on tables where you think it's +EV to play it UTG? Raising clears some of the crap they play like T8o, 79s, etc and leaves you with Q9s, ATo etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Initiative is something you seem to undervalue in these games. And before you accuse me of not knowing what they call down with, remember that I did play 35k of 1/2 6max and collectively about 25-30k of 2/4 and 3/6 6max as well.

Rob

[gildwulf]

I think in a 1/2 game this is a leak. There aren't enough thinking opponents and wtf do you do on the flop when 5 people called you...bet out?

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I just looked, I´ve raised it half the time I´ve gotten it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm, in reality, looser / more aggressive than I think I am. I looked at my 5/10 db and raised it the majority of the time (limping UTG once, and folding a few times, filtering for UTG 6-handed). At 10/20 I raised it both times I've had it UTG at a 6-handed table over a small sample.

Edit: I looked at JTs since I was triggered to do so by The Metetron's post and Trix's post. For T9s, I came in 18/44 times, always for a raise.

[Trix]

If everyone are horrible, then limping is better, but usually there may be a guy or two who can fold better hands if you raise and plays decently postflop. You dont want to let him in, when it costs very little to raise. Your equity is usually not that bad vs the guys who coldcall alot.

It also gives you the ininiative which is nice, though it doesn´t mean you should try to win every pot.

Sometimes raising will also win you the blinds right there or let you play with position.

Also, I dont like the shania of just limping with these kinds of hands if there is someone behind who is good enough to exploit it.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I think in a 1/2 game this is a leak. There aren't enough thinking opponents and wtf do you do on the flop when 5 people called you...bet out?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been a winning play for me through the limits. I'm actually reconsidering for the first time at 10/20, because it's only a winner in the perfect situations which haven't been coming up as often as I'd like.

Rob

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
I think in a 1/2 game this is a leak. There aren't enough thinking opponents and wtf do you do on the flop when 5 people called you...bet out?

[/ QUOTE ]

You play poker and no, you dont spray all over when you miss completely and you have to show the best hand at the end to get the pot.

I´d raise it every time if I was guarantied that everyone would coldcall. If you lose with it in that spot, then it´s your postflop play that is lacking.

[gildwulf]

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[ QUOTE ]
I think in a 1/2 game this is a leak. There aren't enough thinking opponents and wtf do you do on the flop when 5 people called you...bet out?

[/ QUOTE ]

You play poker and no, you dont spray all over when you miss completely and you have to show the best hand at the end to get the pot.

I´d raise it every time if I was guarantied that everyone would coldcall. If you lose with it in that spot, then it´s your postflop play that is lacking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't lose with it in that spot because I don't play it. I will try out JTs though.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I just saw a 2+2 stat (27/18) raise 9Ts UTG. Is this standard for anyone and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably standard for break even/marginal winner who experiences frequent 300BB downswings.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just saw a 2+2 stat (27/18) raise 9Ts UTG. Is this standard for anyone and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably standard for break even/marginal winner who experiences frequent 300BB downswings.

[/ QUOTE ]


we've had two solid winners say that they raise it UTG and you still make this statement.


PS I raise it UTG as well at most tables and have been winning with it.

edit: ok so i looked through 60K hands and i only found 1 instance where i raised it UTG 6 handed. but thats because i usually play 3-4 handed.

[imitation]

Hahaha 9Ts utg, keep kidding yourself guys, increased variance sure can make you look like big winners.

[brazilio]

Your preflop hands shouldn't be in consideration, luckbox.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
I think in a 1/2 game this is a leak. There aren't enough thinking opponents and wtf do you do on the flop when 5 people called you...bet out?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do when you limp 9Ts and 5 people call you...bet out?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just saw a 2+2 stat (27/18) raise 9Ts UTG. Is this standard for anyone and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably standard for break even/marginal winner who experiences frequent 300BB downswings.

[/ QUOTE ]


we've had two solid winners say that they raise it UTG and you still make this statement.


PS I raise it UTG as well at most tables and have been winning with it.

edit: ok so i looked through 60K hands and i only found 1 instance where i raised it UTG 6 handed. but thats because i usually play 3-4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

60K of 2/4, 3/6, and 5/10, I raised it UTG or MP 36 times. It's just not a situation that will come up often enough. It's a .18bb/hand winner for me, but the sample size is so ridiculously small that there's nothing to really say about whether or not it's been a good raise.

Rob

[imitation]

60k is so stupid to post, I bet you have hands like A8o that are losing after 60k hands, let alone a single UTG, T9s unless under very unique situations IS A LOSER.

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
60k is so stupid to post, I bet you have hands like A8o that are losing after 60k hands, let alone a single UTG, T9s unless under very unique situations IS A LOSER.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a unique situation to be a shitty player postflop, there are about 95% of players in similar situations. You think counseling is an option?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
60k is so stupid to post, I bet you have hands like A8o that are losing after 60k hands, let alone a single UTG, T9s unless under very unique situations IS A LOSER.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have some evidence for this, or are you just dogmatically stating it because that's fun? I think raising this 100% is a losing play. I have no qualms about that. I think raising it occasionally is more +EV than folding it every time. That's all I was saying.

Rob

[DMBFan23]

I mean, it's probably part of the reason he's at 27 instead of like 24 (I personally would rather add more hands in position, then from the blinds, then from early pos.) but I think T9s is a fine hand, I've probably raised it UTG a fair amount.

EDIT: over 30K of 5/10 and 10/20, I've gotten it 8 times UTG 6 handed, and have raised twice.

[joseki]

If I see a 27/18 player raise T9s utg, the last thing I think is 'retarded'. The first thing I do is try to remember recent history of this guy and then take a quick look around the table. Could be tilt, could be a bunch of wimps stacked to his left, could be he's been playing tight for a while, prolly not that he's suddenly become retarded.

FWIW, from my perspective, during a day of 1500 hands there are plenty of times that raising similar hands from UTG/MP is called for.