I suck at blind defense

[The Goober]

I don't have much of a read on villian, but he seems like a decent player. He can also be pretty aggressive, especially when the table gets tight (as it has been for a few orbits at this point). In other words, his range of raising hands here is very large. I also feel like he would probably call down with A or K high if the board isn't too scary.

Pre-flop
Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Every folds to button who <font color="red"> raises </font>, Hero calls.

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/club.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 4.5 SB)
Hero...

How's my line so far, and what's my plan from here? FWIW I'm about 99% sure that button will bet the flop if I check to him, regardless of what he has.

[hobbsmann]

My standard line in blind defense situations like this where you don't have much FE is to just check call the flop and check/fold the turn unimproved. IMO it's best to wait for a hand with more show down value before you go to war with this guy.

[Nick Royale]

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How's my line so far, and what's my plan from here? FWIW I'm about 99% sure that button will bet the flop if I check to him, regardless of what he has.


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I like it. Check/fold.

[Nick Royale]

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My standard line in blind defense situations like this where you don't have much FE is to just check call the flop and check/fold the turn unimproved. IMO it's best to wait for a hand with more show down value before you go to war with this guy.

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We're likely behind, we don't have odds to draw to 6 outs and these outs are also tainted. He'll bet 98% of the turn. Check/fold the flop.

[hobbsmann]

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How's my line so far, and what's my plan from here? FWIW I'm about 99% sure that button will bet the flop if I check to him, regardless of what he has.


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I like it. Check/fold.

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You don't think check/folding the flop is too weak? You are immediately getting ~5.5:1 on your peel and you have as many as 7 outs (over cards +bk straight draw). There is also a decent percentage of the time that villian with check the turn behind giving us two cards for one sb. The combination of our outs and the times we see a free river make this a peel for me, but would like to hear other's opinions.

[Nick Royale]

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How's my line so far, and what's my plan from here? FWIW I'm about 99% sure that button will bet the flop if I check to him, regardless of what he has.


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I like it. Check/fold.

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You don't think check/folding the flop is too weak? You are immediately getting ~5.5:1 on your peel and you have as many as 7 outs (over cards +bk straight draw). There is also a decent percentage of the time that villian with check the turn behind giving us two cards for one sb. The combination of our outs and the times we see a free river make this a peel for me, but would like to hear other's opinions.

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I think we're mainly looking for a flop to hit a draw, pair or whatever, we'll do that pretty often...

Even if this player raises 30-40% of his hand (he should be raising at least 50% but not many do) too many of these hands he raises has us dominated to make it profitable to continue past the flop. AQ/AJ/KJ/AA/KK/QQ/KQ/JJ/TT are together many combinations and they all have us in really bad shape. Calling this flop would be bad IMO.

[BigEndian]

Peel one off, see what develops. Sometimes, especially if you have a tight image, he'll even check behind on the turn and give you a free look at the river. Once upon a time there was a great post that noted the check behind chance gives us a little leeway.

If you think he's just going to hammer at you the whole way, you could fold. If you think meta-game applies then peeling off is good for those reasons as well.

- Jim

[PITTM]

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Peel one off...If you think meta-game applies then peeling off is good for those reasons as well.


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i like this line. as long as the other guy is paying attention.

rj

[The Goober]

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Even if this player raises 30-40% of his hand (he should be raising at least 50% but not many do)

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FWIW, I think this guy might be raising as much as 65% of his hands here. He's not a total maniac, but I've been seen him raise garbage in order to "loosen up the table" when it gets tight like was at this point. Since he was on the button and both SB and I have a pretty tight image, his range here is *very* wide.

I also think there's very little chance (maybe less that 1%) that he will check behind on the turn if I check/call the flop.

[Nick Royale]

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FWIW, I think this guy might be raising as much as 65% of his hands here. He's not a total maniac, but I've been seen him raise garbage in order to "loosen up the table" when it gets tight like was at this point. Since he was on the button and both SB and I have a pretty tight image, his range here is *very* wide.

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Then we need to play back at him. I like to have a hand with sd-value though, so I might pass on this oppurtunity.

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I also think there's very little chance (maybe less that 1%) that he will check behind on the turn if I check/call the flop.

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Against this player I think check/raising the flop is better than check/calling. EDIT: check/calling the flop to check/fold the turn is clearly no good here. And check/calling all the way is even worse.

I like a flop C/R and betting the turn. If an ace or king doesn't fall on the river I'll bet that, too. Perhaps that's unwise if he really calls down with AK UI that often, but keep in mind if he's really raising with 65 % of his hands here our queen has decent showdown value. This play might lose us a bit of money now but could discourage him from stealing when we're the BB next time.

[Nick Royale]

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If an ace or king doesn't fall on the river I'll bet that, too.

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So you still think your Q has sd-value after c/r-ing the flop and betting the turn?

I would prefer to c/r the flop and bet the turn. We raising withith the range of hands he could be raising with I think playing back at him is much better then check/call then fold. I would be careful if an Ace hit though. I could easily put him on Ace/rag.

[hobbsmann]

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I would prefer to c/r the flop and bet the turn. We raising withith the range of hands he could be raising with I think playing back at him is much better then check/call then fold. I would be careful if an Ace hit though. I could easily put him on Ace/rag.

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c/r'ing this flop is really bad IMO as we have both little FE and no show down value. The decision in this hand is between whether to peel or not to peel, with c/r'ing or leading being the worst options.

[Nick Royale]

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c/r'ing this flop is really bad IMO as we have both little FE and no show down value. The decision in this hand is between whether to peel or not to peel, with c/r'ing or leading being the worst options.

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Given the read this is just plain wrong IMO.

[hobbsmann]

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c/r'ing this flop is really bad IMO as we have both little FE and no show down value. The decision in this hand is between whether to peel or not to peel, with c/r'ing or leading being the worst options.

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Given the read this is just plain wrong IMO.

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Maybe folding is *best*, but you are also making peeling on this flop sound like an egregious offense, which it is not.

[The Goober]

thanks for the replies. I ended up check-folding the flop. I figured there was some chance that I'd be able to get him off his hand, but he is likely to simply call down with any A or K and there's the always the chance that he has a real hand. My draws are just too weak here to peel when I know that he'll fire again on the turn. I suppose the fold was right, but it felt weak.

I guess I have trouble in general playing blind defense with hands that are too good to fold, but have very little showdown value UI. Most of the time these hands aren't going to hit anything and I end up having to fold them while still having no idea what my opponent has. I feel like I'd rather have K2o here than QJo, but I know that can't be right...

[Nick Royale]

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Maybe folding is *best*, but you are also making peeling on this flop sound like an egregious offense, which it is not.

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I don't think calling is terrible, I just think it's the worst option so I would stay away from it.

[somapopper]

no one mentioned peeling one off and then check raising the turn on a scare card. Is this line too dangerous, too obvious? If I don't try to do it too often I find it to be sufficiently effective.

[sweetjazz]

From your description of the villain, I will sometimes 3bet this hand PF. That seems a bit strange, because QJ isn't that great of a hand. The reason to 3-bet PF is to increase your fold equity. You should take down most flops with an A if he misses the flop, and the same is likely true with a K. At the same time, you'll flop a high pair (Qs or Js) a fair amount of the time. Villain is likely to make more mistakes postflop because he'll put you on a range of hands very different from what you actually have.

Having said that, don't get too carried away with this idea. You need for villain to be able to lay down weak A highs and K highs unimproved. Most players will do so against a preflop 3bet, but some will be stubborn. That stubbornness will pay off big time when you value 3-bet from the BB, but then obviously a play like this is destined to turn into spewdom. Also, you're going to be OOP the entire hand, so be wary if your honest assessment is that villain plays equal or better than you postflop.

Finally, an additional metagame benefit of this play is that it might tone down button's blindstealing a bit. You don't want your blinds stolen repeatedly, so you should push back with your strong hands plus an occassional weak one. The key being that it is done only occassional and you have reads to indicate that the villain in question will play in a way that makes this play profitable.

BTW, once you call in the BB (which is a standard play and even after advocating considering the line above, I would still flat call a lot of the time here), I think folding the flop is best. Making loose calls on the flop with weak hands has been a leak in my SH game that I have hopefully fixed. There's just not enough upside in your hand to invest a single SB into the pot at this point.