Can we get a discussion on early level play? 20% ROI at 22s?

[Unoriginalname]

I've been getting frustrated with my mediocrity as of late. After about 1500 22 party STTs, I have about an 11% ROI. I really want to reach a 20% longterm ROI at the 22s. I know my game isn't perfect, but it's hard for me to even fathom how some people are pulling a 20% ROI at this level. I'm having trouble finding another 9% ROI in leaks, but I'm not going to give up. I feel like my bubble play is pretty solid, although I'm sure not perfect. My ITM I think could use some work. I know my levels 1-3 could use some work, as I fold pretty much every hand except AA-QQ, AK, AQ, and pocket pairs.

How much ROI do you think (ballpark figure) I am missing out on playing this tight so early? Is there really, say, 5% ROI hidden in these early levels I am passing up? Can any successful higher stakes players and/or players at the 22s (with a high longterm ROI) give me any pointers for these levels? I'm not asking for you to outline an entire strategy that I can follow ABC style, I know that's not possible. I could just use a point in the right direction. Should I be raising more with hands like AJ, AT, KQ from decent position? Should I be playing more hands like JTs, or KJ that were usually auto folds for me? I feel like my postflop play is decent atleast.

How did you learn how to play the early levels of STTs?

What should I be doing to improve this part of my game?

Was this skillset just something that came naturally to you?

What differences should I keep in mind between playing a regular ring NL game and a STT in early levels?

I've tried several searches and there's just almost no talk about how to play early levels in this forum. Almost every question is about middle/late game and about good pushes and calls.

[FakeKramer]

Yea I've played 250 of the $20s so far with an ROI of 12%. I really don't see a whole ton of things I could do to make my ROI to up another 8%. Me thinks 20% in the $20s isn't sustainable over thousands of SNGs.

[Sabrazack]

I feel the EXACT same way. I know im not playing perfectly since my ROI sucks. But i have NO idea what ot change, whenever i post a hand everyone seems to agree with what i did /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Hornacek]

Hmm... post some hands. Not just of the ones where you bust out, but ones where you have premium hands. While one leak could be your losing hands, another could be not extracting enough chips out with your good hands.

20%+ ROI is attainable, as I have 20%+ ROI at the $33s for over 2 years now. Others do too. Post results, and we'll try to discuss for you.

[The Don]

Here are my suggestions... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=3034870 )

[stanzee]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been getting frustrated with my mediocrity as of late. After about 1500 22 party STTs, I have about an 11% ROI. I really want to reach a 20% longterm ROI at the 22s. I know my game isn't perfect, but it's hard for me to even fathom how some people are pulling a 20% ROI at this level. I'm having trouble finding another 9% ROI in leaks, but I'm not going to give up. I feel like my bubble play is pretty solid, although I'm sure not perfect. My ITM I think could use some work. I know my levels 1-3 could use some work, as I fold pretty much every hand except AA-QQ, AK, AQ, and pocket pairs.

How much ROI do you think (ballpark figure) I am missing out on playing this tight so early? Is there really, say, 5% ROI hidden in these early levels I am passing up? Can any successful higher stakes players and/or players at the 22s (with a high longterm ROI) give me any pointers for these levels? I'm not asking for you to outline an entire strategy that I can follow ABC style, I know that's not possible. I could just use a point in the right direction. Should I be raising more with hands like AJ, AT, KQ from decent position? Should I be playing more hands like JTs, or KJ that were usually auto folds for me? I feel like my postflop play is decent atleast.

How did you learn how to play the early levels of STTs?

What should I be doing to improve this part of my game?

Was this skillset just something that came naturally to you?

What differences should I keep in mind between playing a regular ring NL game and a STT in early levels?

I've tried several searches and there's just almost no talk about how to play early levels in this forum. Almost every question is about middle/late game and about good pushes and calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

My game has become really fine tuned the last 1000 SnGs and i've hit a 30%ROI 46%ITM at the 20s (4 tabling). I've since moved up, although sometimes still play the 20's at lunch.

People will say my stats are bull, but they are true and include a 20, 27, and 35 buy-in downswing. I rarely make mistakes these days, and am extremely talented at spotting other players "tendencies" even when 4 tabling which definitely boosts the old ROI. I think these stats are the max you can hope to achieve (i'd be surprised if anyone could beat these).

To answer your question on early game hand selection- if you are not a good player post flop player(like most people on this forum) then you should probably stay ultra tight, but say you're the sort of player who can play JT on the flop, and have a good feel of when you have the best hand or when you KNOW your beaten even if you hit the your J or T and can still lay down your hand, then playing slightly looser preflop is definitely +ve. This is the basis of what has made me the monster of a player i am now. I can play the early mid and late game almost optimally.

[splashpot]

I laugh everytime I read something this guy writes.

[Bill Poker]

if he does have 30%ROI 46%ITM at the 20s (4 tabling) over 1000 sngs, he is either on a huge heater, or very good at this game (at least $20+2).

[ QUOTE ]
I laugh everytime I read something this guy writes.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Unoriginalname]

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to really work hard on improving my levels 1-3. Your post has convinced me that if I am ever going to reach my STT goals, I need to learn how to play more hands than the top 4 and pocket pairs.

You have no idea how insanely jealous I am of that 1000 game sample. Partly because of the amount of money you've made (more than I've made in 1500 SNGs) and partly because of your lack of swings.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Yea I've played 250 of the $20s so far with an ROI of 12%. I really don't see a whole ton of things I could do to make my ROI to up another 8%. Me thinks 20% in the $20s isn't sustainable over thousands of SNGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, if you dont think 20% is doable in the 22s, how do you expect to do anything but ever lose in the 55s on up? 20% in the 22s is for SURE doable. like, not even close.. 4-8 tabling.. i can see 30%ish.. holla

[ace_in_the_hole]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... post some hands. Not just of the ones where you bust out, but ones where you have premium hands. While one leak could be your losing hands, another could be not extracting enough chips out with your good hands.

20%+ ROI is attainable, as I have 20%+ ROI at the $33s for over 2 years now. Others do too. Post results, and we'll try to discuss for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Years could be 100 SnG's. How many is this over? I feel like until I see soemone with >20% ROI over 10,000 SnG's I will not think that it is possible. But I am probably just a loser in denial.

I agree with the OP in that I can't figure out what leaks could be responsible for 10$ of ROI. That being said I gave up at the 22's na dmoved to the 33's now I ahve over 1500 played and am at 15% ROI. I am now on a quest to get 20,000 SnGs played over the next 15 months so that I can draw conclusions from my numbers. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... post some hands. Not just of the ones where you bust out, but ones where you have premium hands. While one leak could be your losing hands, another could be not extracting enough chips out with your good hands.

20%+ ROI is attainable, as I have 20%+ ROI at the $33s for over 2 years now. Others do too. Post results, and we'll try to discuss for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Years could be 100 SnG's. How many is this over? I feel like until I see soemone with >20% ROI over 10,000 SnG's I will not think that it is possible. But I am probably just a loser in denial.

I agree with the OP in that I can't figure out what leaks could be responsible for 10$ of ROI. That being said I gave up at the 22's na dmoved to the 33's now I ahve over 1500 played and am at 15% ROI. I am now on a quest to get 20,000 SnGs played over the next 15 months so that I can draw conclusions from my numbers. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

good luck playing 20k in 15 months. not that it would be hard to do, it would be hard to not want to hang yourself from boredom. i havent played 20k sngs yet, and there is a reason for that. holla

[ace_in_the_hole]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yea I've played 250 of the $20s so far with an ROI of 12%. I really don't see a whole ton of things I could do to make my ROI to up another 8%. Me thinks 20% in the $20s isn't sustainable over thousands of SNGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, if you dont think 20% is doable in the 22s, how do you expect to do anything but ever lose in the 55s on up? 20% in the 22s is for SURE doable. like, not even close.. 4-8 tabling.. i can see 30%ish.. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

How much would you charge for lessons? I honestly am amazed at this, well i was already amazed at you raptor, but I would really like to talk poker with you and would be willing to pay for an hour long phone conversation as you watched me play a few 33's. Is this possible?

[ace_in_the_hole]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... post some hands. Not just of the ones where you bust out, but ones where you have premium hands. While one leak could be your losing hands, another could be not extracting enough chips out with your good hands.

20%+ ROI is attainable, as I have 20%+ ROI at the $33s for over 2 years now. Others do too. Post results, and we'll try to discuss for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Years could be 100 SnG's. How many is this over? I feel like until I see soemone with >20% ROI over 10,000 SnG's I will not think that it is possible. But I am probably just a loser in denial.

I agree with the OP in that I can't figure out what leaks could be responsible for 10$ of ROI. That being said I gave up at the 22's na dmoved to the 33's now I ahve over 1500 played and am at 15% ROI. I am now on a quest to get 20,000 SnGs played over the next 15 months so that I can draw conclusions from my numbers. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

good luck playing 20k in 15 months. not that it would be hard to do, it would be hard to not want to hang yourself from boredom. i havent played 20k sngs yet, and there is a reason for that. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being somewhat sarcastic, but I honestly don;t think I will ever get too bored playing for at least $4/SnG. I spent two years as a cashier at grocry store for $8/hr, THAT was the type of boredem that could lead to suicide. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
HOLLER

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yea I've played 250 of the $20s so far with an ROI of 12%. I really don't see a whole ton of things I could do to make my ROI to up another 8%. Me thinks 20% in the $20s isn't sustainable over thousands of SNGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, if you dont think 20% is doable in the 22s, how do you expect to do anything but ever lose in the 55s on up? 20% in the 22s is for SURE doable. like, not even close.. 4-8 tabling.. i can see 30%ish.. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

How much would you charge for lessons? I honestly am amazed at this, well i was already amazed at you raptor, but I would really like to talk poker with you and would be willing to pay for an hour long phone conversation as you watched me play a few 33's. Is this possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

ill be honest, its prolly not the best for me to be giving people lessons.. for a number of reasons. i contradict myself a lot in things i do, but for reasons that make perfect sense in my mind, and more than likely, to quite a few others as well.. however some of these concepts, etc, are really hard to explain sometimes. i mean, itd be easy to walk you through early game, basic middle game, and perfect pushbotting, that just takes practice.. but to REALLY improve to a very high lvl and crush the small stakes games takes a whole lotta work, and im not really willing to put in the time for someone else. maybe well figure something out for a game or something.. but as of now my time is really strapped cuz of school stuff, and i like to play on occasion myself. this is a convo for pms though. holla

[MegaBet]

Raptor has never placed above me in an SNG. I'm proud of that fact /images/graemlins/grin.gif

It seems I only lose to donks...

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Raptor has never placed above me in an SNG. I'm proud of that fact /images/graemlins/grin.gif

It seems I only lose to donks...

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, how many have we played together, and are you SURE? cuz i have a lot of sns.. holla

[jeffraider]

I've now got 1800 $22s at 22% and 500ish $33s at 24%. I also have 11 $55s at like 200% because the $55s are easy and I'm good at winning 30/70s in them.

[ace_in_the_hole]

[ QUOTE ]
I've now got 1800 $22s at 22% and 500ish $33s at 24%. I also have 11 $55s at like 200% because the $55s are easy and I'm good at winning 30/70s in them.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you make about $8/SnG at the 33's, I would love to play 1k $33's a month for $8,000 + Rakeback. This seems like a dream job that I need to get. LOL

I'm in the same boat as all the other whining $22ers, this thread is good but we still don't have much advice other than that it IS possible. Can we get anything else outta you guys?

[nate_king1]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the same boat as all the other whining $22ers, this thread is good but we still don't have much advice other than that it IS possible. Can we get anything else outta you guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

First things first, I haven't replied in a while because I was vactioning in Peru for the last 10 days. Good time, cheap down there. Average person makes $200/Month, made me think about my $200 swings I have.

I have about 15% ROI at the 22s, lame. I want to be as good as "the_don" where I can pull $5/SNG and do it 8-Tabling. That would be a nice hourlyrate I can enjoy. But we need more help from you 20%+errs, not just. Let me see on of your handhistories. Take us threw a while SNG tourny, lets hear some more tips, etc.


LATER...


January 1st my goal is to be 14xTabling the 22s for $100/Hour or be 8xTabling 33s for $80/Hour. I hope to get there.....

[lorinda]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the same boat as all the other whining $22ers, this thread is good but we still don't have much advice other than that it IS possible. Can we get anything else outta you guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between 15% and 25% is probably experience.

There are a lot of people who seem to believe that there is a magic formula. There isn't. When you start playing reasonably on the bubble, and tight early in the game, this is the point where you started learning poker, not where you finished learning.

There's a game that I have been dying to post from the $11s from a few nights ago, but I'm not willing to post it with player names in (Not worried about protecting mine, I'm concerned about Party's data sharing policy). Basically it involved me folding everything apart from two hands. One AK and one steal, and the biggest pot I won was 100 chips or so.

I let myself get blinded away from a very early stage because I "knew" the signs of a SNG where I was going to get in the money if I just left them to it. I came third and was actually close to coming second.

I am confident that most people here would have gone out 4th or 5th a huge % of the time.

Is that because I'm particuarly great? No. It's because I've played poker for many years and had time for the brain to develop instincts about such matters.

If you're between 5% and 20% in your games, you are being paid to learn and to gain experience. It doesn't neccessarily mean there are huge holes in your understanding, but you are not going to master poker overnight.

Lori

[The Don]

Very true. The most important aspect of the bubble is NOT you hole cards... it is the nature of the other players and their stack sizes. Sometimes I am in a position where I am playing for first and sometimes I am in a position where I am playing for ITM.

[Unoriginalname]

I joined this forum in April but I didn't start getting serious about poker until June. So I've only really been playing approximately 3-4 months. I guess I'm going to need some patience. I just want to make sure I don't go about poker the wrong way and stop actively learning the game. I don't want to still be an 11% player if I'm still seriously playing in a year.

[helpmeout]

The difference between the good players and mostly the duds on this forum is the ability to act on things like table dynamics and your opponents tendencies.

Playing like a rock and generally following the mostly beginner advice on here will not turn you into a big winner.

If the blinds are generally not calling raises then steal blinds. If that guy in seat X is raising light and folding to reraises then reraise him.

You gotta pay attention to the games and make adjustments where you see fit.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
2 Years could be 100 SnG's. How many is this over? I feel like until I see soemone with >20% ROI over 10,000 SnG's I will not think that it is possible. But I am probably just a loser in denial.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to be a pr1ck but the only sentence that has any resmeblance of truth to it is the last one. There are two reasons that nobody posts their 25% ROI reults over 10000 22s or 33s. First, and most obviously, most people who are beating either game at that rate typically move up. Second, their are some rather +EV implications of not posting those results.

There is some part of me that is tempted to spend the next 4-5 months 8 tabling the 33s at 24% until hit 10000 SnGs just so that this issue is forever closed. If there were an easy way to prop bet (I am open to suggestions) this so that I wouldn't lose out on cash by not moving to the 55s I would probably do it.

** I think you could be the 33s at near 30% if you played most of your games at night. Don't get me wrong because I can't but I think a great player can do it. Sadly I am not in that group because my game has a ton of really big holes that I need to work on.

[ QUOTE ]
Very true. The most important aspect of the bubble is NOT you hole cards... it is the nature of the other players and their stack sizes. Sometimes I am in a position where I am playing for first and sometimes I am in a position where I am playing for ITM.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bubble is all about playing perfect ICM poker. Though I do agree that passing up SOME +EV plays is required.

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

** I think you could be the 33s at near 30% if you played most of your games at night. Don't get me wrong because I can't but I think a great player can do it. Sadly I am not in that group because my game has a ton of really big holes that I need to work on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind my 20%+ ROI is played STRICTLY at night. I'm a trader during the days (8 am to 6 pm), with 1 hr commute each way. So I generally play ~12 games at night.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]

Basically it involved me folding everything apart from two hands. One AK and one steal, and the biggest pot I won was 100 chips or so.


[/ QUOTE ]

I had one like this last night. Played one nice-sized pot, won it, then kept folding junk and playing my other tables. The next time I got any kind of hand, it was the bubble on Level 2. Two more busted on Level 3, I got second. Easiest money I ever made.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the same boat as all the other whining $22ers, this thread is good but we still don't have much advice other than that it IS possible. Can we get anything else outta you guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between 15% and 25% is probably experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I was at 9% ROI for my first 500 $22s, and 35% for my last 500 so you can see just how little a sample even 500 is. Granted, I did get better between those two samples for sure (Irie helped me plug all my huge leaks and turned me into a winning player, and I also picked up SNGPT after the first 500 and started to make nearly 100% good bubble pushes and folds. I think I make a bad push/fold about once a week at most now. I'm not playing perfect ICM or anything but I very rarely will give my opponents a big screwup in the late game.

I completely agree with Lorinda about the big difference being experience. I also think postflop play can add so much ROI for you, and that's something I've just been getting better at with experience and effort (and reading every single post by my postflop heros like Adanthar, Lacky, Unarmed, Irie, curtains, citanul, Raptor, Big Limpin', etc). I'm getting more chips in the middle stages than I've ever had before, picking up uncontested pots in spots that make sense to do it, and that's definitely helping.

Also, my $33 results are definitely heaterific. I was running at 40+% ROI until game 450ish and then I dropped all the way down to 24% so it's not like I'm the $33 master or anything, I've just been playing decently and running real good. I plan on sticking around the 800-chip games for a while so I'll let everyone know when I've got 2500+ games at the $33s. Hell, I'm playing the $22s right now just because I find them so comfortable. I should go back to the $33s but I keep withdrawing down to my $22 bankroll of 70 buyins.