Good River..uhhh...maybe not [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : Good River..uhhh...maybe not

09-29-2005, 10:06 AM

BB is 70/15/1.4 after 110 hands. Button is 51/4/0.2 after 70 hands. My game selection is good. Sometimes too good.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (10.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

How many botched up streets?

Digs

09-29-2005, 10:27 AM

Tough one,

I play it the same typically unless i'm feeling frisky and raise the turn and check behind the river~

Nick C

09-29-2005, 10:31 AM

I probably would have played it the same way.

I wonder, though, if raising the turn in hopes of driving out Button and taking a free showdown on the river unimproved would be worth trying?

I'm having trouble interpreting BB's turn bet (and it doesn't help that I've never played 10/20). But if you think there's a good enough chance that you're best to call the turn and river anyway, maybe raising would be better.

Getting 3-bet would suck, though, and facing a river stop-n-go wouldn't be much fun either. Also, if you're pretty sure you're behind on the turn, then calling the turn and folding the river unimproved might be best.

peterchi

09-29-2005, 11:15 AM

Button never has two pair here?

I'm new to HUSH so that's a sincere question, I have no idea.

Jeff W

09-29-2005, 12:34 PM

Raise turn. Well played river.

Lmn55d

09-29-2005, 12:36 PM

hey could you outline your reasons for raising the turn. I would just call as that donkbet could be a lot of hands that you are behind and you need to call a 3bet.

Jeff W

09-29-2005, 12:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hey could you outline your reasons for raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
BB is 70/15/1.4 after 110 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's worth 1 BB more to try and isolate BB in this large pot and I don't have much respect for his hand range.

pyroponic

09-29-2005, 12:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Button never has two pair here?

I'm new to HUSH so that's a sincere question, I have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

54/4/0.2, probably not.

Catt

09-29-2005, 01:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My game selection is good. Sometimes too good.

[/ QUOTE ]

But your seat selection needs work.

09-29-2005, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My game selection is good. Sometimes too good.

[/ QUOTE ]

But your seat selection needs work.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? This guy is the furthest thing from an aggro as possible.

09-29-2005, 01:14 PM

Is that a joke? You generally have limited ability to choose seats when you're entering the *one* open seat at a table populated by fish on your buddy list.

-v

Catt

09-29-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My game selection is good. Sometimes too good.

[/ QUOTE ]

But your seat selection needs work.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? This guy is the furthest thing from an aggro as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he's on your left. You want him on your right. You want the opportunity to have the loose passive acting before you (isolating, getting out early on bad boards when he shows strength, etc.) The semi-maniac is in an awkward spot relative to the LPP fish, but his relatively low pre-flop aggro means I'd rather have him on my left since I'm not going to be frequently 3-bet isolated or raise-iso'd in those rare circumstances when I limp behind the LPP limp. His maniacal post-flop play means I like having him on my left since you're going to be ck-raising and three-betting for value a lot, and on favorable boards you're going to get "LPP limp, you call, maniac raises, LPP calls, you 3-bet" opportunities pretty regularly. You're also going to get the chance to check to maniac and call closing the action pretty often so you can play weaker hands more effectively post-flop. If possible, I'd like to be right bewteen LPP and maniac; if not possible, I'd still like to be on LPP's left instead of his right.

Catt

09-29-2005, 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is that a joke? You generally have limited ability to choose seats when you're entering the *one* open seat at a table populated by fish on your buddy list.

-v

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not a joke. I believe seat selection is more important than table selection. I'll sit to the left of a buddy-lister when the rest of the table is solid; I won't sit to his right when the players to his left are solid TAG/LAGs -- you lose a lot of perceived "buddy value" when you're not in position to capitalize on it. The whole point of seeking out LPPs is to play with them post-flop -- you maximize this by ensuring that you get to act as soon as reasonably possible after the LPP. If you're sitting at a table without regard to specific seat selection, I think you're missing out on a lot of value inherent to good game selection. If you're sitting at a table solely because a buddy-lister is present and regardless of relative position, I'm willing to bet that you could find better tables to play at even without a buddy there (I know I do).

DMBFan23

09-29-2005, 01:37 PM

I think having a loosey on my left, in addition to not letting me know when he'll play, etc, as you stated, often means he's floating on me even though he doesn't know it. QJs when it misses is really hard to play OOP.

09-29-2005, 01:37 PM

Look at the reads again. No maniacs are at this table. There are two fish and the biggest one is to my right. Not that it matters much though, because the dealer still wouldn't give me a seat change button after I got called to the game.

09-29-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think having a loosey on my left, in addition to not letting me know when he'll play, etc, as you stated, often means he's floating on me even though he doesn't know it. QJs when it misses is really hard to play OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had to look again to make sure I posted right.

The 70/15 who donked the turn is the reason I sat in the game. The 51/4 behind me was just a bonus. Please look at the OP again.

MrBig30

09-29-2005, 01:44 PM

I dont think sitting to the right of someone loose passive is bad at all. Being loose he usually calls too much and you exploit this by relentless valuebetting, and bluffing less. Also he gives a lot of free cards when you are drawing.
Also it is much nicer to have HIM on your left then a good aggressive player.
My favorite on the other hand is (left to right) maniac, loosie and then you. Maniac raises, LP coldcalls, and you can 3-bet your premium hands /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Catt

09-29-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Look at the reads again. No maniacs are at this table. There are two fish and the biggest one is to my right. Not that it matters much though, because the dealer still wouldn't give me a seat change button after I got called to the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone with a 70 VPIP and a 1.4 post-flop AF is a maniac in my book. Unless he folds a lot (and 70 VPIPs tend not to fold correctly) do you have any idea how many crappy hands he needs to betting and raising post-flop to get his AF over 1? This dude appears to be a nut post-flop.

Catt

09-29-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think sitting to the right of someone loose passive is bad at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not bad, just not nearly as good. Less bad if he is prone to cold-call with crap but a fair number of loosies (VPIP) get that way because they limp first in or call with chit in the blinds -- I have a fair number of guys who are VPIP 50+ that aren't big cold-callers -- having them on your left sucks a lot of the perceived value from the enticing VPIP.

MrBig30

09-29-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think sitting to the right of someone loose passive is bad at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not bad, just not nearly as good. Less bad if he is prone to cold-call with crap but a fair number of loosies (VPIP) get that way because they limp first in or call with chit in the blinds -- I have a fair number of guys who are VPIP 50+ that aren't big cold-callers -- having them on your left sucks a lot of the perceived value from the enticing VPIP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure this is true. However in my experience most really high VPIPers coldcall a lot too, even at 10/20. Very nice when you have those high PP´s especially. Like someone said, it always puts a smile on my face when someone coldcalls my AA or KK raise /images/graemlins/smile.gif

09-29-2005, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise turn. Well played river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never thought about raising the turn, it doesn't look that bad.

09-30-2005, 10:43 AM

BB is 70/15/1.4 after 110 hands. Button is 51/4/0.2 after 70 hands.

Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (10.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

BB doesn't show [ 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif ] two pairs, kings and nines.
Button shows [ 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif ] three of a kind, fives.

I literally wanted to kill someone. Button made this once in a lifetime amazing play and didn't even know it.

Preflop and flop are as standard as it gets.

Turn play is negotiable. Raising to try and drive out the button may be slightly better than calling although it wouldn't have worked here. I might win this hand if I raise on the turn because if button 3 bets behind me, I'm less likely to give him a one card straight on the river.

River play is (obviously) up for debate. How do I NOT call the last bet getting 15-1??? I thought my hand was good less than 2% of the time. Boy was I wrong. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

09-30-2005, 07:42 PM

I had to bump this back up b/c I'm a little upset that not even one person called me an idiot for folding this river.

Jeff W

09-30-2005, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I had to bump this back up b/c I'm a little upset that not even one person called me an idiot for folding this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because folding the river is a good play.

twowords

09-30-2005, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had to bump this back up b/c I'm a little upset that not even one person called me an idiot for folding this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because folding the river is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I refuse to call you an idiot, but I can guarentee you that I would never, ever fold this river against this guy in the 5 or 10 game.

I am not being results oriented here; are you really so sure on that agression stat after 70 hands? KJ from this guy doesn't suprise me here at all. He's a terrible player.