Buying the button with TT

[rigoletto]

Party 30/60.

TAG raises UTG, two coldcallers of medium quality, I raise TT in the CO, blinds fold, others call. 4 to flop for 13½sb.

Flop: Js, Qc, 7s (I don't have the Ts)

checked through

Turn: Js, Qc, 7s 9d

TAG bets, next guy raises, one fold, I call, TAG folds.

River: Js, Qc, 7s 9d 8d (Nice!)

bet, raise, call.

[flub]

What does this have to do with buying the button? 9/10 times button is folding here anyway and even when he comes along it's probably a good thing.

With T's in this hand you're really looking to make trips and the more ppl the merrier. If you do happen to have an overpair on the flop you will still likely need to wait till the turn to force ppl out.

Seems like a good place to cold call to me.

-f

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
TAG raises UTG, two coldcallers of medium quality, I raise TT in the CO,

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you raise or 3-bet? I like a raise, but I probably wouldn't 3-bet here. Rest is good.

[flawless_victory]

looks perfect on all streets.

[amulet]

preflop i 3 bet if i can limit the field, here you can not. calling is best. if the players are tight a fold can be correct, but in today's games that seems less and less true. and if you expect 5, then pocket pairs lower then tt should be played here too.

i think the 3 bet pre here has neg ev, but nice runner runner!

[BarronVangorToth]

Pre-flop: good.

Flop: yep.

Turn: there aren't even 7BB out there, there is the two-flush, and you have an open-endeder that isn't to the nuts (K = A10 bests you; or you can already be behind to K10).

And hitting your 10 might give all sorts of other hands to others.

You called 2BB and there were about 10BB out there...

What could he be raising with?

Obviously you have potential implied odds with hitting your hand as you did and him walking into (and calling) the raise, but...

I think this is close, but a fold to that turn raise - and far be it that I mind paying for draws when the odds are right.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[rigoletto]

Even thogh I wrote 'buying the button' I mainly 3-bet preflop to earn a free look at the turn. Right after I became uncertain if this is the right play these days. It seems to me that there are less 'check to the raiser' sentiment than there used to be. I don't mind buying the button though and I don't mind getting the blinds out since that will make it easier to play a rag flop!

I agree with Barron that the turn call is questionable and probably slightly -EV.

[DeeJ]

this is fine.

as someone else said, I raise pf to give me more chance of seeing off the blinds, not really to buy the button or give me a cheap flop choice, although it helps my chances for that too.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

wow. i thought this was just incredibly standard preflop play. maybe i'm wrong?

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
wow. i thought this was just incredibly standard preflop play. maybe i'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]


Lest there be any confusion with the OP replying to me, as I said in my post, I like his PF line.

I'm not sure about calling the turn - and I think it was just barely a -EV play that turned out okay. But, results-orientation aside, -EV.

But close. And it may have paid off later IF his opponents were savvy in that they would give him far less credit, and the -EV he gave up might have had dividends outside of the immediate.

Maybe.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[ QUOTE ]
preflop i 3 bet if i can limit the field, here you can not. calling is best. if the players are tight a fold can be correct, but in today's games that seems less and less true. and if you expect 5, then pocket pairs lower then tt should be played here too.

i think the 3 bet pre here has neg ev, but nice runner runner!

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this line of thinking, I would not 3 bet with TT in this situation, I am interested in the arguments for 3 betting preflop in this particular situation.

[ QUOTE ]
wow. i thought this was just incredibly standard preflop play. maybe i'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
3 betting TT is not standard by any means in my opinion.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

3 betting TT is not standard by any means in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes it is; it's textbook in, among other places, Small Stakes Hold 'em.

The only place that is questionable is the turn; barring metagame / image considerations, this was on the fold side of things.

That is where it's close decision; it's not close pre-flop.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[amulet]

barron, i like your writing and your posts, however, as i stated in my post above:

"preflop i 3 bet if i can limit the field, here you can not. calling is best. if the players are tight a fold can be correct, but in today's games that seems less and less true. and if you expect 5, then pocket pairs lower then tt should be played here too.

i think the 3 bet pre here has neg ev, but nice runner runner!"

------------------------------------

everything is game dependent, you can not just say ssh says to reraise.

the purpose of your reraise here would be to either to limit the field or to get $ in with the best hand. you certainly can not limit the field by the time this comes to you, and you often do not have the best hand. let's do a little math. the UTG is TAG, so we can say he would raise with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT AK, AQ, there are 32 possible ak and aq combos, and 30 pair combos (less 3 because the poster has TT). almost even. two cold callers, who are ok players. i can not see TT having positive ev here.

[lil feller]

Amulet, we've had some interesting conversation over the last week or so, but I think in this example you're applying your UTG raising standards to the PFR. He could also very easily have KQs, KQo, 77, 88, and 99. Adding those hands make it far more likely that hero is ahead of the PFR.

We KNOW we're ahead of both cold callers, as JJ+ is certainly 3betting. One thing the OP left out is how tight the blinds are, but if we can get even one of them to fold an over 3 betting is definately the way to go.

Its not like we have 66 here and must hit a set to improve. Its also likely that a lot of our opponents are sharing cards or that they have smaller pocket pairs, greatly increasing our preflop equity.

lf

[amulet]

given what we know of the utg, i think you are giving him way too wide a range of hands. 99 maybe, kqs maybe, but i doubt the others. and if there were fewer opponents already in i reraise to force the blinds out, however, too many are already in to 3 bet in my opinion.

and i have also enjoyed our discussions over the past weeks,.

[pokerkai]

[ QUOTE ]
wow. i thought this was just incredibly standard preflop play. maybe i'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero can call with 8 outs in a reasonable sized pot for two bets for the same reason Barron Vangor Toth can call 2 cold with an inside straight draw on the turn in a reasonable sized pot: 3 betting preflop with all holdings = +EV!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

3 betting TT is not standard by any means in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes it is; it's textbook in, among other places, Small Stakes Hold 'em.

The only place that is questionable is the turn; barring metagame / image considerations, this was on the fold side of things.

That is where it's close decision; it's not close pre-flop.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]
Barron, telling me that something is in smallstakes isnt going to convince me that 3betting TT is standard. Like you, I have read all the books multiple times so it isnt necessary for you to quote any paragraph for me. When I have TT and its been raised in front of me there are times I will fold it, times I will call it, and times I will reraise with it depending on what I want to accomplish and who I am up against. TT is a highly situational hand. I know in general that all hands are situational. But TT is more situational than most hands in my opinion. I believe when Ed Miller wrote smallstakes and gave his preflop guidelines, he wasnt intending for anyone to strictly adhere to them. They are still just a guide, and there are many times it will be correct to deviate from that guide, especially with a hand like TT

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero can call with 8 outs in a reasonable sized pot for two bets for the same reason Barron Vangor Toth can call 2 cold with an inside straight draw on the turn in a reasonable sized pot: 3 betting preflop with all holdings = +EV!

[/ QUOTE ]


In the September "On the Edge" that I wrote, I had the odds to make the call, but just barely; in this situation, you don't have the odds, but it's likewise just barely.

My saying you don't have the odds, if anything, should be REALLY indicative as some say that I overestimate the odds in a situation.

While on paper calling for the gutshot seems worse than for the open-ender, the critical difference is one of the main (and often missed) points of Small Stakes Hold 'em:

You're not taking into account the size of the pot. In my situation, the pot was exponentionally bigger - hence, it was correct.

Here, it's small, AND you're not drawing to the nuts AND you could be drawing to the chop as well in some scenarios.

Interesting comparison ... but it proves my point.

For reference, the OP even stated that he believes now that the odds may not have been there.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
When I have TT and its been raised in front of me there are times I will fold it, times I will call it, and times I will reraise with it depending on what I want to accomplish and who I am up against.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree. There are some situations where you would call or fold.

Absolutely nothing about this post provides the information that would make this correct to call or fold.

WAS this a situation to call or fold? I don't know. From the information given, it's a raise.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[astroglide]

i definitely like calling better than reraising here preflop

[amulet]

how can you be so adament about raising here? the utg rasier is a tag, 2 callers. i posted my math earlier. and i disagree about the raise. but i would like to hear what you see that i do not. to me a raise here has a clear neg ev. please elaborate on your thoughts.

[steveyz]

One less cold caller and I think it calls for a 3-bet. In this situation, I usually lean towards just calling preflop.

[Klepton]

[ QUOTE ]
wow. i thought this was just incredibly standard preflop play. maybe i'm wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

hands that UTG would raise AK-AJ, AA-88, other random junk (shania)

i 3-bet everytime.

[amulet]

not a good player is he raise with those. he was described as tag. therefore, i think there are a lot fewer hands he raises with utg.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]


hands that UTG would raise AK-AJ, AA-88, other random junk (shania)

i 3-bet everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]


Before you even get to the "junk," you have hands you should open-raise with UTG in these types of games:

A10s, KQs, KJs, and KQo. PLUS the aforementioned "junk" that they just felt like raising to mix up their game / they are bored / they aren't as good as you think.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
i posted my math earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can generate all sorts of stats to show all sorts of things.

You can go into any problem with a predetermined notion and gets the results you want from it - but the results won't include the important variable of position and proper post-flop play with it.

Both of which are served I believe best via the three-bet.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[rigoletto]

Thanks for the replies. A couple of comments:

I wasn't determined when I posted the hand but after thinking about it I like the preflop 3-bet simply because it gives me more options. I would like it more with a 5 way (or bigger) pot, but I think putting in one extra bet preflop is easily made up postflop:

- I make more money when I hit and have people calling (in a big pot) when they are drawing nearly dead.

- Getting a free turn card is worth a lot.

- It makes it easier for me to read a higher pocket pair on the flop.

- I like the blinds out for when a rag flop shows.