AK

[PokerBob]

villain here is a bit lagtardy (40/24/2). yes?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, CO folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

[Peter Harris]

i like it but i am afraid that the delayed-turn-raise followed by the river raise looks like a flush draw that made it to me. I think you played very well. But i'm not going to be at 10/20 for anothe 3 years or so...

[TheMetetron]

Yes and weep that you are beat.

[TomBrooks]

I would venture that getting raised on the turn almost certainly means your opponent can beat Top Pair, so folding looks best to me here. If you think villian is prone to bluffing, I would just call it down the rest of the way.

As played...

On the river, do you think Villian would bluff twice in a row? Do you feel he might try a second bluff here specifically because of the scare card flush? Do you think he thinks you would be willing to lay down a hand that you would three bet him on the turn with? Do you think he thinks you would bluff three-bet the turn, etc. Betting into him after that turn seems awfully aggressive unless you have a feel for him that I'm not getting from the brief read you provided in the OP.

[billyjex]

[ QUOTE ]
I would venture that getting raised on the turn almost certainly means your opponent can beat Top Pair, so folding looks best to me here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me you're joking.

[kapw7]

[ QUOTE ]
I would venture that getting raised on the turn almost certainly means your opponent can beat Top Pair, so folding looks best to me here. If you think villian is prone to bluffing, I would just call it down the rest of the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also means that he was slowplaying a pair of Kings or he is semibluffing with a flush draw. For a LAGtard it might even be a pair of queens

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would venture that getting raised on the turn almost certainly means your opponent can beat Top Pair, so folding looks best to me here. If you think villian is prone to bluffing, I would just call it down the rest of the way.

[/ QUOTE ]It also means that he was slowplaying a pair of Kings or he is semibluffing with a flush draw. For a LAGtard it might even be a pair of queens

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, OK. Maybe I didn't fully appreciate OP's meaning of lagtardy. So in that case, I would go into call down mode, as I imagine oftentimes we would be behind, but we'd want to continue for those times we're not. Raising seems a bit risky, but that would depend on just how Lagtastic Villian is, how he's been playing lately, what we think he thinks our image of him is, does he seem to be on tilt, etc.

[TheMetetron]

Tom, no offense, but you seem way out of your league here.

The way Bob played it is good against his default opponent at this level, and especially so against one of the LAGgier ones.

TPTK is routinely enough for me to 3-bet against an aggressive opponents turn raise.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Tom, no offense, but you seem way out of your league here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, my actual performance in the Shorthand game so far does not contradict your assessment. I will hope to continue to learn more about the game here in the forum where it costs me less than the lessons I've been getting at the tables.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tom, no offense, but you seem way out of your league here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, my actual performance in the Shorthand game so far does not contradict your assessment. I will hope to continue to learn more about the game here in the forum where it costs me less than the lessons I've been getting at the tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's up Tom,

I would have had the same reaction you did until I sat in a 10/20 game for the first (and only) time. it's really aggressive (I think I need more emphasis here) but people know how to fold some too, so you need to extract value at times like this. against another opponent at another limit, calling down is the best play. against some opponents, you can dump it to the turn raise. but yeah 10/20, against an known aggro player, you gotta grit your teeth and push it, even if lower limit experiences might tell you you're beaten

[joseki]

I may be way out of my league here too, but I'm not sure I like the river bet. Most of these players will bet the hands that they're calling with here (at least against me, perhaps not against your image?), and I'd say that turn raise is a pair/flush-draw quite often. You really can't fold against these guys, so I'm probably check-calling the river. How weak is that?

[PokerBob]

villain here is a bit lagtardy (40/24/2). yes?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, CO folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Betting the river here is hideous IMHO. I posted this hand to humiliate myself, cuz my river play sucks and it has to improve. Villain has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and MHING.

[tizim]

Why is betting the river hideous?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Mathieu]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is betting the river hideous?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting the river is bad because we can't fold to a raise and his range of hands is doing much better against us with that 3rd hearth on the board. One of the reasons that reraising the turn was good is that villain could be raising with just a flush draw, or a pair and a flush draw (and some other weak hands of course). Now all the flush combinations beat us.

Also, we bet to deprive him the chance to check behind with a hand that is beat. Since he is "lagtarded" I guess he will bet our hand anyways. So against him, "check calling" becomes a bet that can't be raised. Sounds good?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is betting the river hideous?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

a.) because i am too retarded to fold.
b.) his draw got there (assuming he was on a semi-bluff)

[deepsquat]

Would villain be more likely to semi-bluff the flop with a flush draw? I play the same fwiw. No way i put him on a flushdraw, more likely a weaker K or possibly a Q. JT /images/graemlins/heart.gif is also a strong possibility.

3 betting the turn cant be wrong vs this guy and theres no way im checking the river after 3betting, we are ahead here too often. And im never folding to the river raise.

nice hand.

[deepsquat]

hey Tom sup? keep learning bro, the HUSH forum is the best place to be. Look fwd to more of your posts.

peace.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Would villain be more likely to semi-bluff the flop with a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

no. at 10/20 a flop raise means "hey, i pushed raise. that was fun." a turn raise could mean a variety of things, one of which is a flush semi-bluff.

[Drontier]

[ QUOTE ]
Tom, no offense, but you seem way out of your league here.

The way Bob played it is good against his default opponent at this level, and especially so against one of the LAGgier ones.

TPTK is routinely enough for me to 3-bet against an aggressive opponents turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]