3/6 6m KQs

[jason_t]

MP is unknown. The Button is a very tight 2+2er. SB is 60/18. BB is 41/.78./.77 after 129 hands.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

I know that preflop will be criticized. The flop and turn were tough.

[Moozh]

Interesting hand Tommy...

If he's unknown, I usually 3-bet KQs pre. This hand would have been a lot easier to play if you had done that (although that doesn't necessarily mean it's the better play).

BB's turn bet really confuses me and makes me think it's likely we're in trouble. This is a guy who raises 0.7% of his hand pre-flop? And he 3-bets pre and donks both the flop and turn. Very strange. I'd call the turn looking to improve.

Once we get to the river, I'm almost positive we're beat, but I think I might call just because BB's play is so confusing.

[deepsquat]

Im 3 betting this pf. Flop action is interesting, not sure if there is much point in 3betting. I think u have to call this down with TP

[TheMetetron]

It's fine.

I only slightly consider 3-betting PF because he's unknown. But these blinds are going nowhere.

BB's pfr is what I'm focused on. I almost want to fold the flop, cause I think he's got at least an overpair. That being really hard to do, I think you played it well.

[oreogod]

chat from IRC. Dont know if anybody cares but it was on there and Im to lazy to repost thoughts. Here is the analysis RAW.

I come in in the middle somewhere and post my Shazam-ism all over this baby. If anybody was wondering how I fit into this. Enjoy.



*Deleted on J_ts request. Because no one will read it and it makes the thread looks messy*

[Transference]

Yeah, preflop is obvious.

Postflop is definately pretty interesting. Most often im 3betting this flop, but given the preflop action it seems relatively likely that your crushed one of 2 ways.

Button folded, did you mean MP is the tight 2p2er?

I'm going to 3 bet this flop.
My biggest concern with a calldown is being trapped on the turn and having - implied odds. Given your position, if you draw heat after your 3bet from these two guys your beat and can fold with a clear consience.

[Luzion]

I would have 3bet pf, as indicated by oreo's copy/paste job of our IRC chat. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Im curious on what others think about the flop play. You could very well be drawing close to dead.

[Transference]

I'm not reading all or any of that unless someone says theres something profound in there.

Does this mean people are actually ushing the HU&amp;SH channel now?

[Transference]

[ QUOTE ]
*Deleted on J_ts request. Because no one will read it and it makes the thread looks messy*

[/ QUOTE ]

Be a hero, post the cliffs notes

[thirddan]

3bet or fold preflop i think, i would fold when its 2 more back preflop. especially since the 3bettor is so freakin tight.

given BB's passive preflop and postflop play, this guy is super passive, super passive players don't 3bet without the most premium of premium hands...i imagine his 3betting range is AA/KK/QQ...note that his raising range maybe larger, but here he is putting in a reraise...

by the turn we can pretty safely assume that MP does not have an overpair since he most likely would continue to be aggressive, his most likely hand is AK since he probably won't raise the flop with JJ/TT, but would continue aggression with AA/KK/QQ...by the river we can safely put MP on AK...while MP having AK narrows the hand combinations that BB can have i still think that we are destroyed here damn near every time...but the pot is sooo big that paying off is probably correct, in addition there the possibitliy that this player is playing a hand totally out of character and it would be dreadful to fold the winner in this monster pot for only one bet...

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*Deleted on J_ts request. Because no one will read it and it makes the thread looks messy*

[/ QUOTE ]

Be a hero, post the cliffs notes

[/ QUOTE ]

It was all kind of lame, dry IRC talk before I jumped in and was like yo yo yo...preflop how ever u want to take this thing, multi/HU...hey whatever works for me (although I 3bet most of the time here)...its how much it floats your boat u have to think about. Flop...looks good. Turn...if it wasnt a blank Id think about raising. River got to call and before I could bring up "hey u might want to raise that River" Jason_t was like BAM! "Im thinking about raising that river." (u know like right before u are about to do a mad Street Fighter combo on some punk he has fingers of lightning and combos u instead) So we talked...rappaported back and forth about either raising turn/river. The intellectual dialogue (stimulating by the way) brought us to the train of thought that the River would be a sweet raise as a turn raise is probably no good (but not bad). Then me and a band of other guys talked and J_t disappeared we were like WTF MATE we are still talking about your [censored] hand. Discussed the probablility of him getting lost on the channels broadband porn somewheres. He came back (hopefully washed his hands)...we talked so more about nothing. Blah blah blah and I capped the chat "Hey Jason, u played it pretty damn well. bravo."

End Scene.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]


But these blinds are going nowhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's bs. Even the loosest of loose players (and it's ahrd to pin these guys on that distinction given so few hands) will fold their blinds when it has been 3 bet. I'd 3 bet preflop. it'a hrd to say much more after that sicne it's a completely different hand.

[Transference]

[ QUOTE ]
End Scene.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cocktails anyone?

[B Dids]

I 3-bet preflop, but I can see why you wouldn't.

The rest I like. It's only 130 hands, but the BB scares me enough that I like calling down and keeping MP around so that it's a bigger pot if I do win it.

Plus there's something very zen about all the calling. Makes me feel good sometimes.

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd 3 bet preflop. it'a hrd to say much more after that sicne it's a completely different hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so true. This hand plays so differnt if you 3 bet it that its tough to dissect.

In addition to having position, KQs plays well in most types of pots. Its got good high card value and plays well HU, its also a suited connector that plays well multiway as well so not 3betting here in position is a big mistake.

[me454555]

PF: Once it gets capped back to you I'd consider folding it. BB is real tight and might already have you crushed. MPs cap is scary as hell b/c an unkown player's capping hand range is (QQ, KK, AA, AKs, AQs maybe) I doubt he caps w/jacks unless he's a real lag and I think your crushed more often than not

Flop: This is one of the easier flop folds IMHO. Your getting 10:1 assuming BB calls. If BB 3 bets, a very strong possibilty given his 3 bet pf your getting even worse than that. You can very easily be drawing dead or to 2 outs b/c your K or Q outs could very easily be tainted so 10:1 might not even be enough b/c you dont know which of your outs are clean

River: It looks like you can fold there even though the pot is big. What hand do you think you beat that he 3 bets oop pf. I doubt he does this w/KQ and doesn't play JJ this way postflop.

[ QUOTE ]
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I'd 3 bet preflop. it'a hrd to say much more after that sicne it's a completely different hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so true. This hand plays so differnt if you 3 bet it that its tough to dissect.

In addition to having position, KQs plays well in most types of pots. Its got good high card value and plays well HU, its also a suited connector that plays well multiway as well so not 3betting here in position is a big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would it be a completely different hand?
Just because you 3 bet preflop doesn't mean the BB doesn't have AA anymore.

Jason,

I don't mind your preflop play as much as everyone else does. In order of EV, I think it goes 1) raise 2) call 3)fold. There is merit to cold-calling and letting the blinds in for equity.

[stoxtrader]

well played I think. Every street.

[casinogosain]

[ QUOTE ]

Button folded, did you mean MP is the tight 2p2er?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he really meant button was the tight 2+2er -
meaning that jason doesn't have to 3-bet to get the button, the 2+2er will fold regardless.

-Ash

[sthief09]

postflop I like

but preflop against this guy I think you should fold. not only is he raising, but he's 3-betting. also MP capping is probably a big hand also. your hand is almost certainly dominated and it's only 4 ways.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


But these blinds are going nowhere.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's bs. Even the loosest of loose players (and it's ahrd to pin these guys on that distinction given so few hands) will fold their blinds when it has been 3 bet. I'd 3 bet preflop. it'a hrd to say much more after that sicne it's a completely different hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


KQs is a perfect hand to let a couple of idiots in with

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
not 3betting here in position is a big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]


no it's not

[jason_t]

Domination is a big concern here for sure, but is folding right getting 7:1?

For the 3-bettor, I do only have 129 hands on him.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Domination is a big concern here for sure, but is folding right getting 7:1?

For the 3-bettor, I do only have 129 hands on him.

[/ QUOTE ]


he is still raising &lt;1% of his hands. you are not against 1 legitimate hand. you're probably against 2.

I like your thought process with the cold call though. I read through the thread and seems like few like it. one time I made a thread where I cold called UTG+1 with AKs with 2 HORRIBLE players right behind me. when you have 2 big suited cards, you don't mind so much letting people in, especially when you have good relative position to the raiser and can raise them out if you hit a flop you like. no one liked my play but I still don't understand why it's no good.

I studied O/8 a bit and this is straight out of that game. with a hand like AA23, the best in the game, it's not even advisable to raise UTG. you want to keep people in, and hope to rehit it if someone raises. I've been limpreraising a lot with suited hands like AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, AJs in full games in addition to AA and KK and I like it. you build a big pot for a hand that plays great in them.

[baronzeus]

i think this hand is pretty good, I like it...but how often is BB betting a worse hand on the river? I think folding should at least be considered because I don't think you win more than 5% of the time. Thoughts?


preflop it's close to a fold IMO...i dont know, i probably wouldn't but it puts you in a bad spot if you hit a Q or a K

[sthief09]

I think folding for 5% should be reserved for people you have an actual read on (like knowing he's not tilting, knowing he's not the type to limp with AA and raise with 75o) and/or in multiway pots where more than one person might have you beat. it's hard to know someone isn't full of it with 95% certainty. there's always the tilt factor

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding for 5% should be reserved for people you have an actual read on (like knowing he's not tilting, knowing he's not the type to limp with AA and raise with 75o) and/or in multiway pots where more than one person might have you beat. it's hard to know someone isn't full of it with 95% certainty. there's always the tilt factor

[/ QUOTE ]


thats fair, i prolly wouldn't fold in this either but i really expect to lose

i guess the rest of the hand is pretty standard then...


edit : not 3betting the flop was weird on his part and on second thought I don't think you can fold the river

[ QUOTE ]
edit : not 3betting the flop was weird on his part and on second thought I don't think you can fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a 2.6 postflop and I don't cold-call bets too often, but this is one of those spots where 3 betting really doesn't accomplish much other than costing you an extra small bet or two.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
edit : not 3betting the flop was weird on his part and on second thought I don't think you can fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a 2.6 postflop and I don't cold-call bets too often, but this is one of those spots where 3 betting really doesn't accomplish much other than costing you an extra small bet or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

im talking about villain, not JT here

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
edit : not 3betting the flop was weird on his part and on second thought I don't think you can fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a 2.6 postflop and I don't cold-call bets too often, but this is one of those spots where 3 betting really doesn't accomplish much other than costing you an extra small bet or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

im talking about villain, not JT here

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I misunderstood. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
edit : not 3betting the flop was weird on his part and on second thought I don't think you can fold the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a 2.6 postflop and I don't cold-call bets too often, but this is one of those spots where 3 betting really doesn't accomplish much other than costing you an extra small bet or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

im talking about villain, not JT here

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I misunderstood. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


im a confusing dude /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[kidcolin]

[ QUOTE ]
Domination is a big concern here for sure, but is folding right getting 7:1?

For the 3-bettor, I do only have 129 hands on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad reasoning. You don't assume an unknown's 3-bet is weak, do you? I get pretty frustrated when people start relying on PT stats for this reason. Until you have stats that prove otherwise, assume a big hand, i.e. AA-JJ, AK-AQ. It doesn't work the other way around.

I muck it preflop (given you didn't 3-bet). Post-flop I like.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
This is bad reasoning. You don't assume an unknown's 3-bet is weak, do you? I get pretty frustrated when people start relying on PT stats for this reason. Until you have stats that prove otherwise, assume a big hand, i.e. AA-JJ, AK-AQ. It doesn't work the other way around.

I muck it preflop (given you didn't 3-bet). Post-flop I like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it though? .78 is so absurdly low that something unusual must be going on.

[kidcolin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is bad reasoning. You don't assume an unknown's 3-bet is weak, do you? I get pretty frustrated when people start relying on PT stats for this reason. Until you have stats that prove otherwise, assume a big hand, i.e. AA-JJ, AK-AQ. It doesn't work the other way around.

I muck it preflop (given you didn't 3-bet). Post-flop I like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it though? .78 is so absurdly low that something unusual must be going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. It is. If it was 70, would you bat an eye if he 3-bet because it's so absurdly high and your sample size is small? Probably not, you wouldn't even be questioning your preflop play.

What's going on is he has one of the top 5 hands, most likely. If you muck preflop and he shows down something terribly bizarre, make a note and use that in the future. Readless with, although a small sample, data that suggests otherwise, don't assume he's getting out of line.

[me454555]

How so? against your typical unknown you have a better hand. While you don't mind playing it w/the blinds playing it HU is still better. On top of that buying the button adds extra equity to 3 betting here.

[me454555]

While it may not change the fact that BB has AA, it certainly changes the times that BB doesn't have AA and folds a hand that would beat you postflop. On top of that, in most situations, it makes this hand easier to play postflop

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

not 3betting here in position is a big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

no it's not

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? against your typical unknown you have a better hand. While you don't mind playing it w/the blinds playing it HU is still better. On top of that buying the button adds extra equity to 3 betting here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not 3 betting isn't a big mistake. If anything, it's a small mistake.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
On top of that buying the button adds extra equity to 3 betting here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Button was extremely tight, I didn't need to buy it.

[me454555]

Its a small mistake that can easily turn into a big one

[me454555]

Small blind and bb are very loose, button could call 2 cold w/hands like pp's and Axs if he belives both are coming along. If he's a 2+2er he knows the same info as you.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Its a small mistake that can easily turn into a big one

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make sense.

Krishan

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
Small blind and bb are very loose, button could call 2 cold w/hands like pp's and Axs if he belives both are coming along. If he's a 2+2er he knows the same info as you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given how we're playing this hand, these aren't like bad things. KQs kinda wants more people in this pot if we're not going the 3-betting route.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding for 5% should be reserved for people you have an actual read on

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone explain this statement to me? What does Sthief mean "for 5%"?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think folding for 5% should be reserved for people you have an actual read on

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone explain this statement to me? What does Sthief mean "for 5%"?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is 17 BB. If I win this hand 5.8% of the time then I break even.

[me454555]

Letting a hand like K3o call 1 bet instead of making him call 2 bets isn't a huge mistake. If lop flop comes down K3x and you end up losing a huge pot b/c he out flopped you, its a big mistake. Thats all I was really trying to say

[me454555]

I guess you can play it either way but I prefer to play it HU b/c I'm in position and I can use my position better HU than in a multiway pot. I also hate to let good players into a pot when I can avoid it. If button is a terrible player postflop I don't mind playing it multiway as much

[me454555]

Why not just toss it on the flop, you're very likely drawing to 2 or 3 outs and you dont know which ones they are

[oreogod]

Preflop can be argued for either/or imo. Given the table.

Postflop I think a river raise can be argued as well. Given his range and his postflop action there is a decent chance u are ahead here. If u raise river u are rarely getting 3bet imo.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Quote:
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I think folding for 5% should be reserved for people you have an actual read on


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Can someone explain this statement to me? What does Sthief mean "for 5%"?


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The pot is 17 BB. If I win this hand 5.8% of the time then I break even.



[/ QUOTE ]

AT what point is the pot 17 bb? I say fold the flop because hero is stuck between 2 raisers and is only getting 8-1 or 11%.

[oreogod]

I guess I should elaborate on why Id raise the river. When we were originally discussing the hand...or well right up until halfway through I missed that it wasnt BB putting the last raise in on the flop (Im a visual person and suck at read the hands in text).

Anyway look at his flop action. He leads into a capper, MP raises, BB just calls. Fine. Turn, he leads again probably putting MP on AK and MP just calls. At this point Im not feeling too bad about my hand. I think either one of them puts in another raise w/ something super strong. MP could have AK, 99-JJ on the turn (not really hot about his flop raise if he does have AK . If thats what he had the pot is large, u are not folding). Obviously he folded the river, given his stats he probably had AK, otherwise Im sure hes calling the last bet.

Anyway...I dont think a turn raise is the best, card was a blank. Maybe its good, I dont think its bad. But Id probably raise the river...to me, unless he played KK retarded (wouldnt put it past him I guess) I think Im in decent shape here.

If we consider MP to have AK w/ his river fold, BB can hold the following:

AA = 3combos (discount this a little)
KK=1 combo
QQ=1 combo
AK=6 combos (discount, if he does play Ak this way hes probably checking the river)
99-JJ=18 combos (maybe disount 99-TT a little)

Those numbers are str8 up...the ones where I would discount they would be a little lower. But its also based on feel. So we have more information I think on the river and while I sometimes raise the turn (depending on a couple things, the card that comes off...how like Im getting 3bet, etc), I like a river raise better.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
AT what point is the pot 17 bb? I say fold the flop because hero is stuck between 2 raisers and is only getting 8-1 or 11%.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 5% comment referred to the river decision.

[jason_t]

So one of the reasons I posted this hand is because while playing it I wanted to raise the river. I outlined my thought process in IRC last night and oreogod has already taken the liberty of sharing those thoughts here. Here were my thoughts last night.

[03:15] jason_t: and then on the river
[03:16] jason_t: i did a little math
[03:16] jason_t: here's what i thought
[03:16] jason_t: MP has AK
[03:16] jason_t: period
[03:16] jason_t: that's what he's got
[03:16] jason_t: after he folds the river that's clear
[03:16] jason_t: so
[03:16] jason_t: 3 A left
[03:16] jason_t: 2 K left
[03:16] jason_t: so
[03:16] jason_t: 3 combos of AA
[03:16] jason_t: 1 combo of KK
[03:16] jason_t: 1 combo of QQ
[03:16] jason_t: 6 combo of JJ
[03:16] jason_t: 6 combo of TT
[03:17] jason_t: 6 combo of AK
[03:17] jason_t: perhaps this can be discounted
[03:17] jason_t: but maybe not because he sure played the hand like he was confused how to play
[03:17] jason_t: which your average donk is with AK
[03:17] jason_t: now your average donk is gonna push AA/KK/QQ harder on the flop he just is
[03:17] jason_t: so i think AA/KK/QQ can be discounted
[03:18] jason_t: 3 AA 1 KK 1 QQ &lt;----&gt; 6 JJ 6 TT 6 AK
[03:21] jason_t: the reason i really like a river raise
[03:21] jason_t: is cause of the combination analysis
[03:21] jason_t: combined with the fact that the board paired
[03:22] jason_t: meaning I will never be 3-bet
[03:22] jason_t: except by QQ
[03:22] jason_t: so it's a thin value raise
[03:22] jason_t: cause i'm ahead of 6 JJ + 6 TT + 6 AK
[03:22] jason_t: and only behind 3 AA + 1 KK + 1 QQ discounted slightly
[03:22] jason_t: so there may actually be value in a raise

[ QUOTE ]
Letting a hand like K3o call 1 bet instead of making him call 2 bets isn't a huge mistake. If lop flop comes down K3x and you end up losing a huge pot b/c he out flopped you, its a big mistake. Thats all I was really trying to say

[/ QUOTE ]

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[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Letting a hand like K3o call 1 bet instead of making him call 2 bets isn't a huge mistake. If lop flop comes down K3x and you end up losing a huge pot b/c he out flopped you, its a big mistake. Thats all I was really trying to say

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a costly event but it's an unlikely one. The profit from the far likelier event of KQ beats K3 more than makes up for the cost of K3 beats KQ.

[baronzeus]

i like the way you played this hand

but i think his range is a little too big here as far as hands go--he won't play many hands like this IMO (except for the weird flop call)---and i don't like raising this river /images/graemlins/frown.gif

people who raise one hand in 130 are either running ridiculously card dead or are passive idiots who only know how to play good hands

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
i like the way you played this hand

but i think his range is a little too big here as far as hands go--he won't play many hands like this IMO (except for the weird flop call)---and i don't like raising this river /images/graemlins/frown.gif

people who raise one hand in 130 are either running ridiculously card dead or are passive idiots who only know how to play good hands

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just throwing my thoughts out there on a river raise. At the time I decided against it but I'm still not sure.

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Letting a hand like K3o call 1 bet instead of making him call 2 bets isn't a huge mistake. If lop flop comes down K3x and you end up losing a huge pot b/c he out flopped you, its a big mistake. Thats all I was really trying to say

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a costly event but it's an unlikely one. The profit from the far likelier event of KQ beats K3 more than makes up for the cost of K3 beats KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQo also beats Q3o a lot!

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Letting a hand like K3o call 1 bet instead of making him call 2 bets isn't a huge mistake. If lop flop comes down K3x and you end up losing a huge pot b/c he out flopped you, its a big mistake. Thats all I was really trying to say

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a costly event but it's an unlikely one. The profit from the far likelier event of KQ beats K3 more than makes up for the cost of K3 beats KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQo also beats Q3o a lot!

[/ QUOTE ]



/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kamelion44]

I thought the same thing here, Evan. Also, it's not a terrible thing for us if loose blinds call is it? They're just juicing our equity with their random hands...I agree with Dids' zen comment too heh.

[TStoneMBD]

i think the preflop coldcall is extremely standard and theres no other way to play it. i also wouldnt fold when its 2 back to you. if your hand was KQo i would, but not suited.

on the flop i like a fold, but i think calling is better than 3betting. with a guy who has .7PFR hes gotta have you killed at this point and MP is still showing extreme strength after capping preflop. of course you wouldnt know since hes an unknown, but if he has any HUD stats or any reads on the BB he must have a legitimate hand. at best youre hoping that MP is overplaying AK or has JJ/TT. in reality though youre really just hoping to river these guys.

still though some very good posters liked proceeding on this flop, but i still have trouble seeing it as a +ev situation.

[Derek in NYC]

1. preflop I'm okay with cold calling, if your read is that a three-bet isn't going to get you heads up with position, given the looseness of the blinds. if you thought you could get HU, i would have raised for last action and the initiative.

2. i think there's a pretty good argument for three-betting this flop to define your opponents hands. AK slows down on the turn if you 3-bet the flop, and this gives you much better insight into when you can bet the later streets for value. if you 3-bet and the big blind either caps and leads into you, or donks the turn, i think you can fold given his extreme passivity.

3. however, i dont think a calldown is that awful. the BB will have JJ or TT or AK some amount of the time that I dont think you're spewing by calling down.

[oreogod]

Only thing w/ your numbers...dont know if u replied to it, was to discount AK as well on the river.

Im usually to lazy to even type out any sort of math in IRC...when we started talking I thought BBs range could be AA-99, AK, AQs. And going from the action AA-KK, AQ were less likely. I mean basic reading of hands...I think another raise goes in w/ one of those (case can be made since they are liekly retarded as well that maybe another bet doesnt go in...but most of the time there will be more action).

I mean when I first looked at the hand, without looking into any math...it looked like the hand could use another bet somewhere (I think its good as is, but just from an intuiitive sense given flop action Id raise either turn/river). When we discussed before even putting the numbers out there the thought of raising river had already been brought up. (this was also before results came in as well).

Also imo the flop is the toughest street. You could get capped, etc. I mean, if u get capped and are behind your odds are just not there. But if u believe its not getting capped I think the call is alright. Its tough. raise/call/fold...Im not a big fan of being in this situation.

[gehrig]

what IRC channel do you guys hide in?

[me454555]

Yes but K3o would be getting the correct odds to continue against KQs if you call and sb calls. Better to win a small pot than lose a big one

[B Dids]

I hide mostly in #bearcave and #isrealxxxpass but we talk poker in #sstakes.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]


KQo also beats Q3o a lot!

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[jason_t]

It looks like this thread has died. I rarely post results, but they are mildly interesting here. BB had JJ and my hand is good.

During this session he upgraded himself to 49.1/3.3/1.1.

I'm happy with this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
During this session he upgraded himself to 49.1/3.3/1.1.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the way he played that hand, he deserves an upgrade.