5-10 KK turn decision.

[mowz]

MP3 is 24/4.6/.65 over 250 hands
Button is 40/8/2.5 over 30 hands

5-10 is wierding me out. In the back of my mind I feel like 4-5 people at every table raising 12-13% of their hands will pay, but sometimes they have me second guessing myself.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero ????

[flair1239]

I think I am folding here. For one thing I am giving the CO raise more respect than I normally would. As he seems pretty passive normally.

I also think an overaggressive button would have played harder on the flop if he was on a draw or had any part of the board. I don,t like the capper right behind you when trying to decide whether to call or not.

If it was just us and the button, I would think about possibly calling down. But as it is I think I am folding here. As I think there is a good possbilility , that MP3 might give this a bump.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I am folding here

[/ QUOTE ]

[mowz]

Yeah that's the line I took, but since I'm new to the limit, the results of the hand were confusing, and it was one of several yesterday that played out like this, I thought I'd get a sanity check. Thanks.

Turn: (8 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero folds, MP3 calls.

River: (13 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

MP3 has Jd Js (one pair, jacks).
Button has 2s 6s (one pair, twos).
Outcome: MP3 wins 15 BB. </font>

[ErrantNight]

MP3 shoulda raised that flop, huh?

not that it looks much like villain was gonna be deterred before showing down, which made this tough.

[mowz]

Because of the MP3 high aggro number and the Button low aggro number, I'm was scratching my head as to why it played out like this. Maybe they both hit the wrong button...

[ErrantNight]

MP3 was getting tricky and the button was being a tard. nothing more you can do.

[KDawgCometh]

honestly, I'd check/call the turn. the button is farily aggro, so it is possible that he could raise a scare card like that. YOu're OOP and you don't want to outplay yourself by bet/folding

[paperboyNC]

mowz,

I've been trying to switch from 3/6 to 5/10 and get very bothered by the increased aggression as well.

The game has a lot more deception and thus your folds and your call-downs will be wrong as often as they are right.

I usually call-down more than I should to compensate.

[hobbsmann]

It's tough that you only have 30 hands on villian, but if he continued with those kind of stats over 200 hands or so I would call his raise as it seems clear you are ahead of MP2 and button will be fos enough (as the results show). The thing is since button is an unknown and this is a protected pot you probably need to fold to the turn raise as it is a lot less likely he is bluffing the A three ways.

[limitholdemshark]

u did fine till the turn.when mp3 just calls on the flop he has made a mistake.He should raise you on the flop.since he didnt raise and the ace hits the deck now u should check and call unless when you check either mp3 bets and the button raises or mp3 checks with you and the button bets in either instance u should muck those cowboys.why?if the button bets after its checked to him he's unlikly to be bluffing two players in this hand because its a protected pot(one of u will be pot commited on the river)and if the button raises mp3 then its highly unlikly he is bluffing the mp3 or u.ur bet on the turn had no purpose becase there are no over cards to beat ur hand.however if u had pocket 10s thru qq then betting on the turn is correct because u dont want 2 give a free card

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
if the button bets after its checked to him he's unlikly to be bluffing two players in this hand because its a protected pot

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a major hole in this argument. See it?

[mowz]

[ QUOTE ]
u did fine till the turn.when mp3 just calls on the flop he has made a mistake.He should raise you on the flop.since he didnt raise and the ace hits the deck now u should check and call unless when you check either mp3 bets and the button raises or mp3 checks with you and the button bets in either instance u should muck those cowboys.why?if the button bets after its checked to him he's unlikly to be bluffing two players in this hand because its a protected pot(one of u will be pot commited on the river)and if the button raises mp3 then its highly unlikly he is bluffing the mp3 or u.ur bet on the turn had no purpose becase there are no over cards to beat ur hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone please explain what he is saying? It looks like you are saying that based in what actually happened, I should check fold the turn when the ace hits. Your reasoning seems to be

a) if the button bets, he will not likely be bluffing.

Okay I agree with that, hence my fold after he reraised

b) if mp3 bets he has an ace. (I'm a little unclear on your reasoning for mp3)

With an aggression rating of 4+ he could be betting anything if I check it to him here, even if he just is stabbing at the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
however if u had pocket 10s thru qq then betting on the turn is correct because u dont want 2 give a free card

[/ QUOTE ]

An ace fell on the turn. I don't see how having kings matters more or less than having queens.

Are you sending this to the forums from your cell phone?

[mowz]

Oh hell I just realised there is a typo. The button's agression is .8 rather than 8, making it that much more likely that he is betting a real hand.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh hell I just realised there is a typo. The button's agression is .8 rather than 8, making it that much more likely that he is betting a real hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

.8 isn't that low and it doesn't take all that much for a checked-to button to bet in a decent sized pot.

I don't really have a problem with checking this turn, but checking it to fold to a button bet is [censored] horrible.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
MP3 was getting tricky and the button was being a tard. nothing more you can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something you can do is to make a note of it. One thing I learned from playing shorthanded is to quickly identify (or attempt to anyway) who needs to be called down and who you can fold to.

OK, check fold with KK when a scare card hits on the turn, Holdem Shark. I'm taking notes now. Any other leet tips?

(Btw, I think the OP's line is fine. I might be tempted to call down as I put MP3 new passivity on something like 99, JJ, QQ or KQ hearts, and the button could just as easily be raising a draw as an ace. But I looked at the results in this one before I gave the button a hand range so I'm probably biased ... don't post them so soon next time /images/graemlins/frown.gif )

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh hell I just realised there is a typo. The button's agression is .8 rather than 8, making it that much more likely that he is betting a real hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


uh, there are the stats you gave, I don't see a .8 agfactor in there

[ QUOTE ]
MP3 is 24/4.6/.65 over 250 hands
Button is 40/8/2.5 over 30 hands


[/ QUOTE ]

that;s a pretty high agfactor for someone playing 40% of their hands(though it is over a small sample size)

[limitholdemshark]

if u check on the turn and mp3 bets and the button folds then call him down 2 the river.If the button calls then use ur judgement on whether to see the river.As far as ur second inquiry concerning the reasoning behind checking the turn when u have pocket KK as opposed 2 betting on the turn if u have pocket 10s thru QQs is obvious to any expert.the whole reasone y u bet when u have pocket pairs lower than AA is not to give free cards to hands that have overcards however when an ace comes on the turn it means there are no more overcards to ur KK u need not bet the turn.If they also check on the turn then u can bet out on the river for value.conversly,if the ace dosnt hit the turn then u must bet to prevent giving the free card.If u dont understand this concept i would recomend u place an order for david's book"texas holdem for the advanced player.

[limitholdemshark]

listen,i never said check and fold when a scare card hits the turn.ifn u play in a game that whenever they bet and raise there is a good chance their bluffing then by all means call.but if ur opps.value cash that shouldnt be happening often.

[mowz]

[ QUOTE ]
uh, there are the stats you gave, I don't see a .8 agfactor in there

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence it being a "typo." Your analysis of the hand seemed correct to me based on the incorrect agg factor I listed initially.

limitholdemshark it seems as though you have a definite opinion on this, but I'm not going to pick through your poorty constructed paragraphs to see what it is.

Thank you all for your commentary.