The overhead view is of me in a maze

[bobbyi]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button <font color="green">(46/4.6/1)</font> calls, SB <font color="green">(37/24/2.4)</font> completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

[Catt]

Any read on SB? Might have a value bet on the river if this guy is capable with some crappy Q-high FD that missed (or something similar). It's hard to put him on a hand that beats you and that checks the river unless he's determined to get a C/R in, and your flop raise and turn check also looks like a FD - a river bet might be viewed as you being FOS and get called by all sorts of garbage.

[einbert]

After thinking about it some (but not a whole lot), I think you played the hand perfectly. On the flop there is plenty of chance SB is betting with nothing or a flush draw. On the turn betting sucks because you are getting checkraised a tremendous percentage of the time, and of course never getting a better hand to fold. The river comes safe for you but there is not enough value to bet in this small pot--you are getting checkraised some decent percentage of the time on the river as well and you just won't get enough calls from worse hands due to the very small pot size.

I think the most interesting street is probably the flop. But still the play seems pretty directly correct after some thought.

Nice hand.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to put him on a hand that beats you and that checks the river unless he's determined to get a C/R in, and your flop raise and turn check also looks like a FD

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is somewhat contradictory. The fact that my hand looks like a FD is exactly why it looks like he could have something that beats on the river. With a pocket pair, he could very reasonably check-call to induce a bluff rather than betting into the apparent busted draw that probably can't call.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to put him on a hand that beats you and that checks the river unless he's determined to get a C/R in, and your flop raise and turn check also looks like a FD

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is somewhat contradictory. The fact that my hand looks like a FD is exactly why it looks like he could have something that beats on the river. With a pocket pair, he could very reasonably check-call to induce a bluff rather than betting into the apparent busted draw that probably can't call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're right. A PP almost surely checks the river hoping to induce. I like the river check.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that my hand looks like a FD is exactly why it looks like he could have something that beats on the river. With a pocket pair, he could very reasonably check-call to induce a bluff rather than betting into the apparent busted draw that probably can't call.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a very good point.

However, I also think that this is just the kind of mistake a 34/24 10/20 player would make--betting a river like this for value when he should check call to induce a bluff. Especially since you checked behind on the turn, I wouldn't be surprised to see this guy value bet pocket pairs and even ace high hands in addition to the obvious busted draws. Still I can't see betting the river, he's going to be inducing a bluff or going for a checkraise more often than he's going to call with a worse hand.

[TStoneMBD]

im intrigued by your line because this is not a play i ever make. maybe i am missing out on some free money.

[genya]

What about a turn bet? I think with a 24pfr SB would raise a PP preflop. And a turn bet can also represent a King, and give SB that opportunity to fold.

EK (3/6 6max)

[sthief09]

bet the turn. you get value from a flush draw, his most likely holding. you are representing a K and he won't bluff c/r you

[TomBrooks]

Fold the flop. The pot is small and if SB has a three your almost dead except for runner runner Aces and if he has a King you have only three outs. If he's semibluffing with a flush draw, you can win if neither of you improve unless he also has an ace in which case you only split, but the flush draw will come in almost half the time, and your Ace will come in only about 15% of the time. Your eight could come in sometimes but still lose if a card that beats an eight comes in and he has it.

After that, the rest of the hand as played looks good. If SB had a three, he got afraid you had a King, or he had a King, he was probably hoping to induce a bluff from you because he figured you would fold if he bet again.

Raising preflop is full of equity.
Flop raise is good with button still behind you. Heads up, a call is better.
You have to bet the turn.
River check is perfect.

[ QUOTE ]
With a pocket pair, he could very reasonably check-call to induce a bluff rather than betting into the apparent busted draw that probably can't call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think SB (24 PFR) lets preflop go unraised too often with a PP of 4s or better.

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn betting sucks because you are getting checkraised a tremendous percentage of the time, and of course never getting a better hand to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. I think a turn bet might get Ace with better kicker to fold, and getting c/r here doesn't seem either so likely or so awful.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the turn betting sucks because you are getting checkraised a tremendous percentage of the time, and of course never getting a better hand to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. I think a turn bet might get Ace with better kicker to fold, and getting c/r here doesn't seem either so likely or so awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

The purpose of a turn bet is to avoid giving away a free card. We're ahead here more often than not.

Another ace high isn't folding on this board HU.

[Lmn55d]

I raise preflop a lot against those opponents. I bet turn for reason sthief stated.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. The pot is small and if SB has a three your almost dead except for runner runner Aces and if he has a King you have only three outs. If he's semibluffing with a flush draw, you can win if neither of you improve unless he also has an ace in which case you only split, but the flush draw will come in almost half the time, and your Ace will come in only about 15% of the time. Your eight could come in sometimes but still lose if a card that beats an eight comes in and he has it.

[/ QUOTE ]
What if he has 89 or J4 or something else that missed completely? I make a lot of money from people who think as you do by stealing all the small pots with flops of this texture.

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
but the flush draw will come in almost half the time

[/ QUOTE ]

??

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn. you get value from a flush draw, his most likely holding.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's aggro enough that I thought that if I checked it back on the turn, he would always bet the river with a busted flush draw, so I would pick up one bet from him whether I bet or check the turn. But betting gives him the opportunity to raise me off the best hand, which didn't seem unlikely given how aggro he is, how aggro I am (so he knows I don't necessarily have a hand that can handle a raise) and the fact that the turn is fairly a scare card.

[Jeff W]

I'd raise pre flop, but otherwise I like it a lot.

[dave44]

Posting blind.

Do we really need to protect this hand from the button on a board like this? I just don't see him overcalling without a piece that he's not folding even if we raise.

The way you played it, I would bet the turn since a flush draw strikes me as villain's most likely hand. I think folding to a raise would be best.

[baronzeus]

i play the flop the same but bet the turn. the river is easy IMO.

[Crimson]

No one else think a PF raise is in order? With your line, i would bet the turn for value against the flush draw, and check the river. NH

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Do we really need to protect this hand from the button on a board like this? I just don't see him overcalling without a piece that he's not folding even if we raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did you see buttons numbers preflop? He open limped frm the button and will have up to 6 outs vs hero's hand a lot here. I think you gotta get this heads up with the possible draw.

[rogue]

You've lost it, you'll never get out of this maze.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is full of equity.
Flop raise is good with button still behind you. Heads up, a call is better.
You have to bet the turn.
River check is perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this is an exact street by street line of thought I took when looking at the hand.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. The pot is small and if SB has a three your almost dead except for runner runner Aces and if he has a King you have only three outs.

[/ QUOTE ]What if he has 89 or J4 or something else that missed completely? I make a lot of money from people who think as you do by stealing all the small pots with flops of this texture.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he had something that missed besides a pocket pair I don't think he'd bet with two players to follow. How often do you make money versus lose money by guessing that a random unknown player (no reads given in OP) does not have what he is representing in a situation like this?

[Digs]

[ QUOTE ]
You've lost it, you'll never get out of this maze.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotta get out of this maze. I've gotta get out of this maze.

[deepsquat]

wow, i autofold these flops at 1/2 &amp; 2/4 when bet into, maybe i should start looking a bit closer. Is this a play to be making at the lower limts or best saved for 5/10+?