big laydown or is this standard? 2/4 NL

[tdarko]

villain is tricky. played with him plenty of times and he is the only player at the table i respect.

effective stacks:
Hero- $760
Villain- $920

dealt black KK UTG, i raise it to $20. Villain in MP+1 reraises to $60. everyone folds to me, i call. do you like just calling here?
flop is Q /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif pot~$126

Hero checks, Villain bets $90, Hero raises $200, Villain reraises $375????

why not just push me all in? that leaves me with $125 if i just called. when i check raised it seemed the play would be fold, call, push right? this reraise here felt like he wanted me in the pot so he could get me committed for the turn. if i call here, no way can i fold for 125 on 4th.


needless to say i had to use the timer.

[ahnuld]

Ugly flop. I play alot of 400nl and I find any reraise is AA-QQ, with some players reraising AK, which is not the case here. I might lead the flop and fold to a raise. In your case, its an easy fold.

[ripdog]

I keep pushing pre-flop. I raise to $240 pre-flop and get it all in there if he comes back over the top. AA or QQ are definite possibilities. A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is kind of scary, but you're only a slight dog to that hand.

I can't make the numbers that you threw out work. Did you raise to $200 or did you put in $290 for a raise of $200? At best I have you with $105 left. Anyway, getting it all in pre-flop negates his trickyness. Outplay that, biatch. I call.

[Chr]

Don't like your PF call. Reraise!

On the flop here, you have an easy fold.

[emil3000]

[ QUOTE ]
I keep pushing pre-flop. I raise to $240 pre-flop and get it all in there if he comes back over the top. AA or QQ are definite possibilities. A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is kind of scary, but you're only a slight dog to that hand.

I can't make the numbers that you threw out work. Did you raise to $200 or did you put in $290 for a raise of $200? At best I have you with $105 left. Anyway, getting it all in pre-flop negates his trickyness. Outplay that, biatch. I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh to preflop plan. You seriously think you'll be getting 180 BB in with the best of it against a good player on 2/4?

[JKratzer]

You say he's tricky, so reraise pf to define his hand and get money when you're ahead. I'd probably reraise to about $150-200. As you played it, I'd have to fold to his reraise on the flop.

JKratzer

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't like your PF call. Reraise!

On the flop here, you have an easy fold.


[/ QUOTE ]
i reraise, then where do i go when he comes back over?

he is a tricky LAG that can play at you with many hands. if he plays back at me do i call? then i am right back where i was originally but with more money in the pot. now what?

[ripdog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I keep pushing pre-flop. I raise to $240 pre-flop and get it all in there if he comes back over the top. AA or QQ are definite possibilities. A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is kind of scary, but you're only a slight dog to that hand.

I can't make the numbers that you threw out work. Did you raise to $200 or did you put in $290 for a raise of $200? At best I have you with $105 left. Anyway, getting it all in pre-flop negates his trickyness. Outplay that, biatch. I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh to preflop plan. You seriously think you'll be getting 180 BB in with the best of it against a good player on 2/4?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only hand he has here is AA? Gimme a break. I'd be thrilled to get it all in pre-flop here.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
The only hand he has here is AA? Gimme a break. I'd be thrilled to get it all in pre-flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]
true.

he had just been staying away from me and pounding on everyone else. had a really bad feeling.

[emil3000]

At this point, sure KK is ahead against most of his range. If he fourbets it becomes a lot iffier, and I definitely think you're behind often.

[Chr]

If he is a tricky LAG, then move in pf if he reraises u.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
If he is a tricky LAG, then move in pf if he reraises u.


[/ QUOTE ]
even with as deep a stacks as we had?

we clearly covered the table, i didn't see any reason to push on him with this hand. probably wrong but at the time i didn't see any reason.

[ahnuld]

Unless villan is extremly tricky, I just dont see him having anything but AA-QQ once he calls or raises your checkraise. He has QQ or AA and thats it in my mind. This is how most people play at 2-4.

[tdarko]

i probably should have reraised preflop to define his hand more (whatever that means since his reraise after dodging me and pounding everyone else at the table pretty much told me he had a big hand) but i still don't think there was a need to push so early in the hand.

i folded to his reraise on the flop, obviously. he either had AA-QQ, maybe AdQd which is still scary. he showed AA and typed "nice try at the pot." i didn't reply.

[emil3000]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless villan is extremly tricky, I just dont see him having anything but AA-QQ once he calls or raises your checkraise. He has QQ or AA and thats it in my mind. This is how most people play at 2-4.

[/ QUOTE ]
What makes it real tricky is the fact that 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is a possibility against a tricky villain. Hmm, I hate these spots, a reraise preflop might be best, although as I've said, I'd not be very happy to get all in preflop with these stacks.

[esbesb]

This is neither a "big laydown" nor is it a "standard" laydown. It is in-between. Make as educated a guess as you can.

So, you say, you have played against him many times? You respect him? You stay away from him? You are tight against him? He is a good player? Well, maybe he's picked up on your attitude and he's been planning on taking this pot away from you the minute he saw your first bet.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
What makes it real tricky is the fact that 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is a possibility against a tricky villain. Hmm, I hate these spots, a reraise preflop might be best, although as I've said, I'd not be very happy to get all in preflop with these stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, i didn't think the flop decision was really as difficult (in hindsight) as the preflop decision b/c of your very post. now if he has this draw then its a bad fold, but it also proves that he could hold just about any two cards as well and all i have is a pair. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[tdarko]

this is right on in some places and not in others.
[ QUOTE ]
You respect him?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes
[ QUOTE ]
You stay away from him?

[/ QUOTE ]
no
[ QUOTE ]
You are tight against him?

[/ QUOTE ]
i had actually been pounding on him a little and taking some pots from him. he had been making some laydowns to me not really the other way around. he had been absolutely crushing the rest of the table though.
[ QUOTE ]
He is a good player?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, i think he is probably better than me.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, maybe he's picked up on your attitude and he's been planning on taking this pot away from you the minute he saw your first bet.




[/ QUOTE ]
you are exactly right but for a different reason than i think you originally thought. i think he found Aces and thought "haha i am finally gonna pick this fucker off!"

i think he wasn't tangling with me b/c he knew i wouldn't race him preflop (i too had a deep stack) whereas the rest of the table was pretty much preflop raise/post flop push poker and he was salivating and gobbling them up.

[Chr]

sry... forgot about the stacks. No, you cant move in with that deep stacks.

And.... sry again, I just realize that if he reraises you, we are in 4th bet. I can't remember when I saw a 2-4 player do this with a hand lower than KK. I don't even recall QQ! But maybe you know something about this player I don't...
I agree with ahnuld here.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I don't think I have ever seen a bluff that had a preflop reraiser practically minreraise (50 more than minimum) leaving himself so much behind. I would fold pretty quickly here-villain does not seem too worried about what you have.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Check/raise sucks on this flop. It's just asking to be played back at since it's so draw heavy.

[tdomeski]

What do you do if you are him with AA? I don't think I would 3 bet this flop but I dunno I guess it depends which aces I held. Thoughts?

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I would 3 bet this flop but I dunno I guess it depends which aces I held. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
like the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. i probably wouldn't 3-bet it either way (mainly b/c i would put my opponent on a PP) b/c i would have position and know the villain would be in a tight spot to lead the turn. i think if i just call i have a better chance of extracting more chips thus being more EV.

[creedofhubris]

You got lucky that he didn't smooth call your flop raise and push the turn. He revealed the strength of his hand with the min-reraise and you were able to fold.

Moral: min-reraises are for the birds.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
You got lucky that he didn't smooth call your flop raise and push the turn. He revealed the strength of his hand with the min-reraise and you were able to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]
this is why when replying to tdomeski's question, "how would you play it if you were him?" i said i would have just called the check raise on the flop. the min-raise reveals way to much about your hand i agree.

[spino1i]

The problem with reraising pre-flop is he smooth-calls you with position (if he has any sort of brain) with AA and folds or calls with QQ. You are almost gaurenteed to drop your stack here if he has AA, since you are the aggressor and out of position (unless you just plan to check on an ace/king-less flop?) As it stood, I would have called his raise, and folded to his initial bet, figuring him for QQ or AA. That is assuming that this is 10-max and he is your typical TAG player that populates 2/4 NL 10-max.

As it stood, he played very poorly, reraising on the flop. He allowed you to make a laydown with a hand weaker than his and jepordized his whole stack against a hand stronger than his (i.e. a set). Smooth calling is a much smarter move on his part.