JJ on a raggy flop, facing action.

[callmedonnie]

I don't have stats at my disposal, but Button was loose, passive-weak type, CO was alright but too loose PF.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, Hero ?

I was thinking call down. I lead the turn hoping that a raise would force the button out, because he was a loose passive player who could have anything and I wanted him out.

[mack848]

The flop cap tells me he prolly has a set. I call down from here, hoping he has 44, or something.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking call down. I lead the turn hoping that a raise would force the button out, because he was a loose passive player who could have anything and I wanted him out.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like it - that sounds like a crappy reason to lead the turn.

The only hands I see a loose/passive Button folding are hands that have little-to-zero outs against you anyways - so I don't really see the logic in trying to fold him. If you're confident that you're ahead of CO AND that CO will bet the turn why not go for the value check-raise with two hands that are likely drawing incorrectly.

[callmedonnie]

Yea, it was crappy I just felt like an overcard would be terrible.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, it was crappy I just felt like an overcard would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know what it feels like. Out of curiousity what was your range for CO when he caps the flop.

[callmedonnie]

Quite wide. Like I said, he played ok but was about low 30's in vpip. Hands that I was ahead of I thought he might have 77-99, not sure about tens, and I don't have his pfr % in front of me. Also though he could have flush draw and overs, A5 of hearts, or 65, which I might counterfeit. Obviously a set was possible. I didn't really think about straigt possibilities because he wasn't that loose and I don't think a straight draw pushes that hard w/ the flush potential.

River comes down the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Call down?

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking call down. I lead the turn hoping that a raise would force the button out, because he was a loose passive player who could have anything and I wanted him out.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like it - that sounds like a crappy reason to lead the turn.

The only hands I see a loose/passive Button folding are hands that have little-to-zero outs against you anyways - so I don't really see the logic in trying to fold him.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if CO is taking a free card here? There's a few draws he'd check behind with that we want to charge.

[KDawgCometh]

considering the flop action, you leading the turn only is padding the pot for the other guy and isn't really you getting the other guy to protect your hand.

GIven your reads there's nothing saying that the CO is over aggro post flop. It looks like you're either up against a set or made straight. I'm just calling it down after the flop and just hope that he has a hand like 88, 44, 77, or a grossly overplayed A6

[Kumubou]

If you had no intention of taking this hand to showdown then why did you even go to the river in the first place? This river is not the place to fold.

That river is actually a good card for you (relatively speaking), since if he flopped some random two pair you just counterfeited it. So on the river I check/call expecting to lose but for villan to have flopped some two pair (or a bricked flush/straight draw) at least one in ten times.

-K

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Quite wide. Like I said, he played ok but was about low 30's in vpip.

[/ QUOTE ]
When you say that he plays OK - it makes me wonder what he's capping the flop with (assuming that he thinks of you as a good player). It sounds like there's a pretty good chance that you're behind - I think your turn decision is either check/fold or check/call - and I like check/calling better because it also seems like you're not real clear on your read of CO.

[ QUOTE ]
River comes down the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Call down?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming that you called the turn...

I can't think of a hand in his range that contains a 9 - so unless he was pumping a small set that's a beautiful card for you. I suppose that check/calling is an option here - again because you don't seem real solid on your read. He might not bet with a flopped 2-pair now that the board paired so by not betting you might miss out on some value. I don't however think that you're confident enough in your read to bet/fold. I'm not sure that the EV of bet/calling is that much higher in this HU situation than check/calling.

I'm torn between bet/call and check/call but, regardless, I think that card is good enough that you need to see a showdown.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
What if CO is taking a free card here?

[/ QUOTE ]
After capping the flop?!? That doesn't sound like something that an opponent who "plays OK" would do. Also, if he was on the draw why would he force out the Button?

[callmedonnie]

I had full intention of calling this down. I just wanted to run it by people.

[Kumubou]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if CO is taking a free card here?

[/ QUOTE ]
After capping the flop?!? That doesn't sound like something that an opponent who "plays OK" would do. Also, if he was on the draw why would he force out the Button?

[/ QUOTE ]
I could see a hand like A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif or 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif playing like that, or some equally monstrous draw. Cap the flop for value and check the turn through if it's a brick.

Why would he raise the button out? Maybe he also has Hero's read and thinks that the Button is going nowhere fast and is willing and able to pad the pot. No reason to not give people a reason to call two cold if they will.

(Also regarding the river, after thinking about it for a bit I think I like bet/folding it now, depending on how strong your read is.)

-K

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if CO is taking a free card here?

[/ QUOTE ]
After capping the flop?!? That doesn't sound like something that an opponent who "plays OK" would do. Also, if he was on the draw why would he force out the Button?

[/ QUOTE ]

My sentiments exactly.

Ready for the showdown: A9 hearts. I think he thought all his outs were good, not discounting any even though I raised from sb. Either way, he played his hand ok. He had a ton of equity on that flop, and was right to get money in.

When I lead the turn and he raised, I was happy to be HU but thought I might be behind. I was generally confused in this one and really surprised to find out that I was ahead until the river. That was the reason I was questioning myself so much after the hand. I went from thinking I was ahead and trying get bets in and protect pot, to thinking I was behind.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if CO is taking a free card here?

[/ QUOTE ]
After capping the flop?!? That doesn't sound like something that an opponent who "plays OK" would do.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with capping (for example) a nut-flush draw here and checking behind the turn? You've a smidgen of +EV on the flop 3-handed, so why not try to get the free card?

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if he was on the draw why would he force out the Button?

[/ QUOTE ]
To get a free card? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
What if CO is taking a free card here? There's a few draws he'd check behind with that we want to charge.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he capped as a free card play, he (over) paid for it. I think a turn check is fine.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with capping (for example) a nut-flush draw here and checking behind the turn? You've a smidgen of +EV on the flop 3-handed, so why not try to get the free card?

[/ QUOTE ]
What's wrong in this hand is that he's not only capping the PF raiser (who also now bet/3-bet the flop) but, he's also capping in front of the 3rd player. He's putting in too much against continued aggression and his flop cap threatens to force out dead money. This situation isn't a "free" card (or even "cheap" card) play however - CO is putting in 2BBs on the flop! With no indication that he's going to be checked to on the turn. IMO, CO grossly overplayed his hand on the flop. I mean - why not put 1.5BBs in (flop + turn) and know that the Button is going to be around at showdown to pay you off.

If there was 1 or two more players and the action went bet, raise, 3-bet - I'm fine with capping it there - but that's a value cap with a flush draw + overcards and also serves to tie one-pair players with 5 outs to the pot.

Side Note: I think a great line for the CO here would've been to call the flop and then raise on the turn when he hit his nine. If he doesn't improve on the river he can always check-behind for the free showdown.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
Side Note: I think a great line for the CO here would've been to call the flop and then raise on the turn when he hit his nine. If he doesn't improve on the river he can always check-behind for the free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, but he won't hit that A or 9 all that often and I am three betting his ass if he raises on the turn without question. After the hand I understood his play. If I were him I would raise also.

I was a little surprised too see that I was ahead, but I should have known I probably wasn't a favorite. When he raised the 9 on the turn I should have known it helped him and been able to narrow down his range even more.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I was a little surprised too see that I was ahead, but I should have known I probably wasn't a favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of this depends on how aggressive this particular player is. If you know that he's going to bet again on the turn with some weak hands I just think you missed a lot of value by not going for the checkraise. You were in a great position to trap the loose/passive Button for value. And if you check the turn and the Button folds for one bet then you can still check/call and play a WA/WB line.