Suited connectors preflop

[Kristian]

It is a classic move to limp in with small pocket pairs and suited connecters in the first couple of levels.

On occation some jerk will raise you after you limped, and now you have to decide whether to call him.

Holding a pair, you basically have to decide whether or not you expect to gain roughly 8 times your investment when you actually make your set on the flop.

I lack the same type of measuring stick concerning suited connectors. I imagine it is profitable to call a min raise with 8 other players in the pot, and that it is probably unprofitable to call off 10 BB with only the raiser in the pot, but where do I draw the line? It is tough math to do, since it is difficult to define a 'succesful flop'.

Any thoughts?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a classic move to limp in with small pocket pairs and suited connecters in the first couple of levels.

On occation some jerk will raise you after you limped, and now you have to decide whether to call him.

Holding a pair, you basically have to decide whether or not you expect to gain roughly 8 times your investment when you actually make your set on the flop.

I lack the same type of measuring stick concerning suited connectors. I imagine it is profitable to call a min raise with 8 other players in the pot, and that it is probably unprofitable to call off 10 BB with only the raiser in the pot, but where do I draw the line? It is tough math to do, since it is difficult to define a 'succesful flop'.

Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a great question and one I often think about as well. I think coming up with "exact" lines is not too useful for Suited connectors etc...Its more feel perhaps...

i.e., a super aggro player limps in to your right after a couple of limper, say blinds are 30 and you have ~1000 and are on the button, this would be a great spot IMO.

For me, its not so much about the price per se (although that does dictate a great deal) but WHO is in the pot with me, and the likelihood of being paid off. For instance, with PPs if I have 33 and the raise is to 100 UTG and I have 1500, I wont call it most of the time in UTG+3 because of the potential reraise, and also, because even if I hit my set, i might not be paid off at all, in which case I am really not getting priced in well.

[raptor517]

why not just open raise with them and get it heads up or 3 handed and outplay the opponents? ehot? holla

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
why not just open raise with them and get it heads up or 3 handed and outplay the opponents? ehot? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't do that on a consistent basis...I think that's the point. But, yeah, thats good sometimes.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not just open raise with them and get it heads up or 3 handed and outplay the opponents? ehot? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't do that on a consistent basis...I think that's the point. But, yeah, thats good sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, you can do it on a consistent basis. holla

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]

On occasion someone with talent will raise you after you limped, and now you have to decide whether to call him.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[ QUOTE ]
why not just open raise with them and get it heads up or 3 handed and outplay the opponents? ehot? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

how bout at the 10s?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not just open raise with them and get it heads up or 3 handed and outplay the opponents? ehot? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

how bout at the 10s?

[/ QUOTE ]

ill never play a hand before lvl 3 in the 10s that is not AK, QQ, KK or AA. its just a waste of time. play more tables. holla

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not just open raise with them and get it heads up or 3 handed and outplay the opponents? ehot? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't do that on a consistent basis...I think that's the point. But, yeah, thats good sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, you can do it on a consistent basis. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You CAN do it on a consistent basis, but I am not sure how often you will be able to outplay your opponents to make it +EV. What we are talking about is very context specific so you might be right.

[ QUOTE ]

ill never play a hand before lvl 3 in the 10s that is not AK, QQ, KK or AA. its just a waste of time. play more tables. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

That may allow for positive ROI, but it's definitely not optimal.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

ill never play a hand before lvl 3 in the 10s that is not AK, QQ, KK or AA. its just a waste of time. play more tables. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

That may allow for positive ROI, but it's definitely not optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guarantee doing this i can do 15% roi or higher in the 22s. there is ZERO doubt in my mind. for a lot of people that post on here, they play so bad post flop it probably is optimal, but that wasnt what i said. holla

Also, if you're never playing PPs preflop in early 11s, I assume you also don't pick 20s up off the street.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not just open raise with them and get it heads up or 3 handed and outplay the opponents? ehot? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't do that on a consistent basis...I think that's the point. But, yeah, thats good sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, you can do it on a consistent basis. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You CAN do it on a consistent basis, but I am not sure how often you will be able to outplay your opponents to make it +EV. What we are talking about is very context specific so you might be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can outplay the 109 opponents all day long doing this cuz they all play the exact same way. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you're never playing PPs preflop in early 11s, I assume you also don't pick 20s up off the street.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not worth my time to play any other hands in lvls 1-3. its worth my time to add push clicks and constantly add tables. playing those hands will increase my roi by maybe 2-3%. maybe. its a much better use of my time to add 4 more tables and reap the extra 15% on each table i get from that. that was my point.. holla

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you're never playing PPs preflop in early 11s, I assume you also don't pick 20s up off the street.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not worth my time to play any other hands in lvls 1-3. its worth my time to add push clicks and constantly add tables. playing those hands will increase my roi by maybe 2-3%. maybe. its a much better use of my time to add 4 more tables and reap the extra 15% on each table i get from that. that was my point.. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. You're a sick man. holla

[Freudian]

Me likes suited connectors. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t800)
Hero (t800)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls t15, MP3 calls t15, CO calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t72.50) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t55</font>, BB calls t55, MP2 calls t55, MP3 calls t55, CO folds.

Turn: (t292.50) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t125</font>, MP2 calls t125, MP3 calls t125, Hero calls t125.

River: (t792.50) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font> Hero bets 200, MP2 raises 200, MP3 is all-in, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: t2610

Results:
Hero has 6d 7d (straight flush, eight high).
BB doesn't show.
MP2 has 3d Kd (flush, king high).
MP3 has 9d Ad (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins t2610.

I think you can do the math the same way you would do it with a small PP. With a PP you need the pot to be laying you about 8:1 to call the raise. If you assume that you need to flop two pair, a flush draw or a straight draw to continue with the hand, you can determine how frequently each of those events will occur.

This might be a good question for the probability forum.

A separate question that the OP mentioned is what constitutes a successful flop. I don't like to play for flush draws too much with smaller SCs because it is too easy to be drawing to a dead hand. Others probably feel differently.

In my estimation I need two pair or a SFD to feel good about the hand in most instances. What do others think?

[Nicholasp27]

probability of improving to:


4-flush: 8.1-1
flush: 118-1
straight: 76-1



flush draw OR oes draw: 4.2-1
flush draw AND oes draw: 82-1
some sorta flush or straight draw: 1.8-1


your odds with 9ts vs 22: 52.93%

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
your odds with 9ts vs 22: 52.93%

[/ QUOTE ]

QUIT IT!

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not just open raise with them and get it heads up or 3 handed and outplay the opponents? ehot? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't do that on a consistent basis...I think that's the point. But, yeah, thats good sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, you can do it on a consistent basis. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

You CAN do it on a consistent basis, but I am not sure how often you will be able to outplay your opponents to make it +EV. What we are talking about is very context specific so you might be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can outplay the 109 opponents all day long doing this cuz they all play the exact same way. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, i dont know...but where I play, there is usually so much action at levels 1-4 it mostly isnt worth it.

I think the most important difference between limping with suited connector or small pp is your POSITION. You can play small pocket pair from any position because it's EASY to play the flop, no set then fold. Suited connectors are not so easy.

Having position on the other players is key because then you have options on how to play it. Dump if bet into. Raise for a free card. Call and evaluate if priced in. etc, etc. But most of these options go out the window when OOP.

So I guess my point is that you dump it unless the raise came from the blinds and you have position. GL.

Curious. How do they all play? By out playing do you mean out bluff? I have found some modest success at the 109's with moderately aggressive semi bluffs on unmade but likeable flops. Does your comment assume most 109's weak tight? Trying to see if my recent observations are correct or just a variance?

[Kristian]

Thanks for the replies and opinions.

In short, suited connectors are much harder to play post flop than pocket pairs. According to the probability forum, the probability of hitting a made hand (two pairs or better) on the flop is only 5,6%, which is a lot less than the odds of hitting a set with a pair.

Therefore, in order to call raises with suited connectors profitably, you must be confident that you can also gain a lot of value from your draws, and in most cases your table position will be critical.

[ QUOTE ]
you can outplay the 109 opponents all day long doing this cuz they all play the exact same way. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Teach me. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you're never playing PPs preflop in early 11s, I assume you also don't pick 20s up off the street.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a broken ATM were spitting out $50 bills, and I saw a twenty on the ground, I would not bend over.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you're never playing PPs preflop in early 11s, I assume you also don't pick 20s up off the street.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a broken ATM were spitting out $50 bills, and I saw a twenty on the ground, I would not bend over.

[/ QUOTE ]

TOUCHE'!!!!

bam

(I disagree, but nice comeback)

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Curious. How do they all play? By out playing do you mean out bluff? I have found some modest success at the 109's with moderately aggressive semi bluffs on unmade but likeable flops. Does your comment assume most 109's weak tight? Trying to see if my recent observations are correct or just a variance?

[/ QUOTE ]

the 109ers as a whole have navigated their way into playing a similar style to that of a 2+2er. the way to counteract that is to pick up a lot of pots by playing a lot of hands early. thats all there is to it. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you're never playing PPs preflop in early 11s, I assume you also don't pick 20s up off the street.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a broken ATM were spitting out $50 bills, and I saw a twenty on the ground, I would not bend over.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have 2 hands, id pick em both up. holla

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your odds with 9ts vs 22: 52.93%

[/ QUOTE ]

QUIT IT!

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But no, don't listen to him Nicholas, keep posting this stuff, numbers tend to drift away and it's nice to set them back in place from time to time.

[Nicholasp27]

pokerstove.com has an analysis of unsuited connectors...

says u need 12:1 for unsuited connectors, 15:1 for 1-gappers, 20:1 for 2-gappers, 60:1 for 3-gappers

suited connectors are obviously better

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
But no, don't listen to him Nicholas, keep posting this stuff, numbers tend to drift away and it's nice to set them back in place from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted that cause we talk a lot about hands and he brings this % up. It doesn't matter what 9Ts is against 22, because you'll never be faced with a situation where someone turns up 22 face up and you run the hand hot and cold (except maybe a prop). Sure, you can use this % when calc'ing your hand against his likely range, but bringing this up in a discussion about playing SC's preflop early in SNGs is irrelevant.

[bones]

http://www.spin.net.au/~soren/roosa.jpg

These may be played from any position.

[ewing55]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.spin.net.au/~soren/roosa.jpg

These may be played from any position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd prefer to play them unsuited. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

-----------Jeff

[llabb]

Thanks, Rap. As a $55'er looking to become a $109'er, I think this is quite interesting. Any other good observations, and do you play the bubble differently since most $109'ers play a fairly good bubble?

I find that the $55 bubble has been becoming better and better over the last several months, including people who seem to go out of their way to make occasional spite calls. I just busted out to a 4d3d that called my AcJs because I was moving in on his big blind too often (usually with far less of a hand).

Have the $215's become a more 2+2 style game as well, or are they just awesome and play goot at all levels: early-, mid-, and late-game?

[neuroman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like to play for flush draws too much with smaller SCs because it is too easy to be drawing to a dead hand. Others probably feel differently.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't mind small flush draws, but it depends on the hand and opponents. If it's heads up or three handed on the flop I'm usually gonna try to get all my chips in with a flush, unless my spider sense tingles. (Ok, I don't have spider sense but I wish I did.)

In a multi way pot, you have to proceed cautiously with your small flush (draw). Probably calling rather than raising, and it's much, much better to be in late position. If the flush comes runner-runner and there hasn't been a lot of action, I'm willing to get a little more aggressive with it.