What's The Best Play For This Hand?

Just sat down in a 5-10 game, posted at CO and got KQo. Everyone folded to MP2, who raised. MP2 is a decent-to-good regular with a wide array of raising hands, and can be tricky at times. Folded to me, I called. The rest mucked, HU.

Flop was K 6 X rainbow. MP bets, I called. Or should a raise have been better?

Turn, another 6. He bets, I called. Should I have folded here?

River, a Q. He hesitated, and bet. What's my best play?

Results later. Thanks.

[anatta]

I just call the flop too. If I have a decent ace or medium pocket, I would three-bet, as I can win unimproved. Here, you can see the flop for cheap and don't mind too much if someone comes along since it may help vs. tricky player.

I would call on the flop and turn too. You have position, he is aggressive, let him bet the hand for you.

I think you probably know the river is a clear raise. The question is, if a blank came, would you raise? I would.

[Nottom]

I'd raise the flop with top pair 2nd kicker. What are you hoping to flop here? You are ahead of AQ, QQ, JJ, TT, and all the other worse hands he would be raising from that position and only behind AA, KK, and AK.

Why would you possibly be afraid of a second 6 on the turn?

On the river, you are now ahead of AK and now behind QQ. The hesitation makes it seem like he has something like JJ or TT. The only legit hands you are behind are AA, QQ, and JJ. You've shown no aggression the entire hand, so this seems as good a place as any to get that raise in.

[Mike Gallo]

Rod,

Flop was K 6 X rainbow. MP bets, I called. Or should a raise have been better?

If he plays overly aggressive smooth call him. How does he view your play? How does he think you think he plays?You very well could have the best hand. If you raise he might fold. However if he views you as weak tight he might raise you back.

Turn, another 6. He bets, I called. Should I have folded here? No !!
You lose to KK AK and AA. or any 6. You are ahead of anything else. If he had a real hand a tricky opponent might have gone for a check raise.

River, a Q. He hesitated, and bet. What's my best play? Debatable. I might get flamed for this, however I would raise. If he reraises then you make the crying call. If he had AK you just rivered him /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

See you soon

Michael

My opponent respects my game based on our previous encounters and I thought he was straight forward on this hand. So I decided against raising and flatly called. He showed rockets for top two. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

[Mike Gallo]

Rod,

WOW !!!!

Good post, glad I didnt play the hand. I would have lost more on it.

Somehow it smelled fishy when he hesitated before betting the river which made put him on AA or QQ. Sometimes I get lucky too. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[Schmed]

I may have reraised preflop if I thought that it would be HU at the flop. I would basically reraise in that situation with anything there that I was going to play if I thought it was going to be HU.

I would have raised the flop, call if reraised.

If I were reraised on the flop I would call his turn bet and raise the river. If I wasn't reraised I would bet the turn and river.

[Joe Tall]

Preflop: I think your call is fine, but if you are sure you wanted to isolate a raise wouldn't be out of the question.

Flop: I'd rasie to see where I'm at, if he comes over the top showing no fear of the K on board...you can put him on AK or even AA.

Turn: For the way you played it, I would not fear the second 6.

River: Well now you stuck, I'd call it and find out.

Other than the flop I think you played it well. Since you know the opponent somewhat it becomes a player-dependant issue, and maybe this is the right play for such a hand vs. this opponent.

[Homer]

I would have smoothcalled the flop and raised the turn. You can play it slow on the flop because:

-- The board is uncoordinated and rainbow
-- Only an ace on the turn hurts you
-- It is heads-up
-- You have position
-- Your opponent sounds like he is aggressive/tricky enough to keep betting with an inferior hand

Given that you just called the turn, I would say that you should raise the river. However, the fact that your opponent hesitated would lead me to just call. There is no way he can be scared by the Q, especially with the paired board. The only way the Q hurts him is if you have exactly KQ or QQ. It would be different if the Q came on the flop and the K came on the river, but the way the board came, he has no reason to be scared. This indicates that he has a strong hand, either AA, KK or QQ.

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

This hand is opponent-dependant however, Homer, I find your reply quite interesting and see we play it totally different.

Ok, Homer (granted we only played 50 hands together) I'm the open raiser and you've got the KQ, now what? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[rigoletto]

I don't really like the turn raise against this type of opponent. A raise will fold worse hands and AA, AK will only call and then what on the river? . A call might induce him to bet or call the river instead of folding his TT, JJ etc. on the turn. In sum you win more when ahead and loose less when behind.

[Homer]

If I hadn't posted one bet already I would fold. Given that I posted I would call and see the flop. I don't see the point to three-betting to isolate a solid open-raiser with KQo.

--- Homer

[Joe Tall]

My question was more geared toward post-flop play, I think that is where most of our differences are... I'd call too if I had the KQo.

[Homer]

You're right, the raise doesn't seem to serve much purpose. You won't get a better hand (AK/AA) to fold and almost no worse hands will call (except for KJ and KT, which your opponent probably didn't open-raise with anyway). Against a poor opponent, who will call me down with a pocket pair below KK, I like the raise. But this opponent is solid so you should call and hope that he continues to bet with a worse hand and then raise the river.

-- Homer

[Homer]

The open-raise came from MP2, a position from which a solid player would open with a wide variety of hands. Solid players tend to be aggressive, so MP2 will likely lead at a flop like this (Kxx rainbow) with pretty much anything. If you raise immediately MP2 might fold a hand with which he was drawing thin (QT, QJ, AT, AJ, AQ). If you just call he might bet into you again (a truly solid player wouldn't do this if he knew he was up against another solid player, who would have to have a made hand, likely a king, to call on this flop), at which point you should call or raise depending on how dangerous the turn card is. If it is a rag that completes the rainbow you should call but if it is a Q, J or T you should raise and make your opponent pay to draw with a broadway draw and overcard or to two-pair. I incorrectly said that you should raise the turn in this case when the board paired, but rigoletto pointed out to me that it is better to wait until the river, and in retrospect, I agree with him.

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

wide variety of hands or AA, AK, KK

If you raise immediately MP2 might fold a hand with which he was drawing thin (QT, QJ, AT, AJ, AQ).

And what is wrong with this? Why not try to take it down right there? I'd raise the flop every-time, given this situation. If I get re-raised, I know where I stand. If I take it down, so be it. If he calls, well, I'll wonder what with and put him on KJs but at least I'd have control of the hand.

Am I going to get run over thinking like this? I'm not sure what's wrong with raising the flop here? Homer? /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif 225 solid muscle....HA! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Homer]

No, you won't get run over, you'll run over the competition which is normally what you want to do but not with this hand.

Look at it this way, you can raise and take it down on the flop if your opponent has nothing or you can call and risk giving him a 3-outer on the turn and let him bet into you again with junk since he thinks you are weak since you only called the flop. You don't always have to raise and take it down immediately when you have the best hand. Sometimes it is more advantageous (obviously when you have position) to let someone who is drawing thin bluff into you. Let them put money into the pot with the worst of it. Sure, they will suck out on you sometimes, but overall you will make more money this way.

I'll provide a more detailed answer later, perhaps with some numbers.

Hopefully someone else will chime in and take on one of our viewpoints. This could be a good discussion.

-- Homer

p.s. - I'm not fat, I'm big boned.

[Joe Tall]

or you can call and risk giving him a 3-outer on the turn and let him bet into you again with junk since he thinks you are weak since you only called the flop.

or you can call and risk not knowing you don't have the best hand and you are paying him off the whole way...If I have the position I use it to my advantage. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

You don't always have to raise and take it down immediately when you have the best hand.

Of course, but this a type of slowplay, is it not? And I believe this hand does not warrant such action.

Sometimes it is more advantageous (obviously when you have position) to let someone who is drawing thin bluff into you.

I understand, I just can't assume that he is drawing thin, I feel I'm better off raising to find out, and betting to make him pay to draw out with the position our poster had.

I'll provide a more detailed answer later, perhaps with some numbers.

This I would like to see, I've learned a lot from you EV and number posts.

Hopefully someone else will chime in and take on one of our viewpoints. This could be a good discussion.

Man I hope so, I feel I'm the newbie out in the cold here. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

I'm not fat, I'm big boned.

I'm not tall, everyone else is just short.
(I'm only joking bro /forums/images/icons/wink.gif )

Peace,
Larry Joe

[Homer]

Sorry I couldn't get back to this thread last night. I still don't have time to answer it fully right now, but don't want it to die.

I understand what you are saying. There are two options:

1) Raise your opponents bet immediately to try to find out as quickly as you can whether you are ahead or behind.

Advantage - You can get away from the hand cheaply when you are behind
Disadvantage - Your opponent will fold hands that are drawing thin when he may have bluffed into you all the way had you only called.

2) Call and let your opponent continue to bet into you, since he will do so with better hands as well as inferior hands.

Advantage - You will often collect a few extra bets from an opponent who was drawing very thin
Disadvantage - Sometimes you will put in a few extra bets only to find out that your opponent had you drawing thin the whole way (e.g. - AA/AK/KK)

I like your tactic better if the raise came from early position, since the range of hands your opponent will have is smaller and many of those hands will contain a K. Given that the raise came from middle position, though, your opponent could have a large hands of hands, most of which you have beaten on the flop. Therefore, I feel that in this situation, option 2 is better than option 1.

Again, I hope to have time to post some numbers later.

Someone else chime in please!

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

Advantage - You can get away from the hand cheaply when you are behind

This is exactly my point. Cheap info raise on the flop.

Disadvantage - Your opponent will fold hands that are drawing thin when he may have bluffed into you all the way had you only called.

I find no problem with taking it down right there. I think the key to this hand is that you are heads up, (I wish I was confident in talking EV, such as you), I don't think calling here can be any good, there is not going to be much more in the pot. I'm sticking to my raise and think the call on the flop is a bad play. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

I like your tactic better if the raise came from early position, since the range of hands your opponent will have is smaller and many of those hands will contain a K. Given that the raise came from middle position, though, your opponent could have a large hands of hands, most of which you have beaten on the flop.

I think this is even more reason to find out what type of hand he has and raise on the cheap street.

Someone else chime in please!

Where's Barry and JTG? Or anyone? I feel heads up against a monster here. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif Very interesting debate, Homer. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I thought that re-raising BTF may have been a good play against this opponent. But he would certainly have made it 4-bet with his monster hand and I would have paid for 1 more bet to see the flop which with a K high could have caused me another. Raising the flop was another alternative but with my knowledge of his play, his re-raise would have been a good sign for me to give it up then.