Young and Stupid

[AZK]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP ($732.50)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($1438.50)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($2278)</font>
SB ($860.50)
BB ($1069)
UTG ($932.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $25</font>, CO calls $25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $95</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls $70, CO calls $70.

Flop: ($300) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $150</font>, MP calls $150, CO calls $150.

Turn: ($750) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

River: ($750) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $500</font>

[BobboFitos]

not to ruin results, but i talked about this with ari, and MP called with QT.

WHAT A SICK VALUE BET!


....



really though, 2 guys called your reraise pf, (i dont know if they knew of your laggy image yet) and both stuck around till river. putting both on a missed draw or Jx etc is wishful thinking and I think this is a negative EV bluff because of it.

[captZEEbo1]

I think there's a pretty reasonable chance someone has an ace here (or whiffed turn c/r with set or something like that, and now figures someone will bet this river)

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I rarely find bluffs after checking behind on the turn to be profitable. Somehow, any pot-sized bet or less always gets called by somebody taking a stand when you check behind. I know you're representing the ace, but you're also representin ga bluff and people will call you with any ace and often KJ-type hands. Give up-there's no shame in it.

[lapoker17]

Jesus. I don't know what to say. Nice try?

[Lucky]

I dont like it. First, someone prob has ragged Ace. Second, it looks like a bluff. Someone calls with any piece, which it looks like both have.

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely find bluffs after checking behind on the turn to be profitable. Somehow, any pot-sized bet or less always gets called by somebody taking a stand when you check behind [on the turn].

[/ QUOTE ]

FoxwoodsFiend - This is a great topic/line of thinking to explore - One that has given me some trouble anyway.

So, the way we (good players, 2+2ers whatever) often play overpairs, big one pair hands is pot the flop, check the turn, bet the river for value. So, I've done this a lot in my short poker career, and I play live with a lot of the same people - some very good players who should certainly recognize different lines, yet these lines as bluffs are on the whole less successful. I bluff like this a lot - pot flop, check turn, bet 3/4-pot on the end - just like I will often play Aces, yet even the smart guys don't often seem to get it. It's as if when you bluff you have to give it this extra little push - one that should be obvious to semi decent players yet it is not.

I don't know.

[kagame]

one thing i like about this bet is at least against two people the first person might lay down 2nd pair almost 100% of the time in fear the person left to act rivered the ace with a flush draw

why didnt you bet the turn just curiously? with that considered, this DOES look like a bluff, i think you might maximize the bet by making it less, say $375, looks like more of a value bet that lapoker is talking about, and makes it even harder for the player in between to call

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
why didnt you bet the turn just curiously?

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? A turn bet here has to be more -ev in poker than open pushing 72o face up!!!!%#%!3613616

[Popinjay]

yay for blink-182

[kagame]

my bluffs never work when i check the turn and then bet the river unless a draw hits, usually takes two different draws hitting

straight got there btw

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
my bluffs never work when i check the turn and then bet the river unless a draw hits, usually takes two different draws hitting

OE got there btw

[/ QUOTE ]

HU? random gutshot got there (not OE) on turn....but on river, ACE DRAW hit!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I rarely find bluffs after checking behind on the turn to be profitable. Somehow, any pot-sized bet or less always gets called by somebody taking a stand when you check behind [on the turn].

[/ QUOTE ]

FoxwoodsFiend - This is a great topic/line of thinking to explore - One that has given me some trouble anyway.

So, the way we (good players, 2+2ers whatever) often play overpairs, big one pair hands is pot the flop, check the turn, bet the river for value. So, I've done this a lot in my short poker career, and I play live with a lot of the same people - some very good players who should certainly recognize different lines, yet these lines as bluffs are on the whole less successful. I bluff like this a lot - pot flop, check turn, bet 3/4-pot on the end - just like I will often play Aces, yet even the smart guys don't often seem to get it. It's as if when you bluff you have to give it this extra little push - one that should be obvious to semi decent players yet it is not.

I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting line you take on your OP's, if you wouldn't mind elaborating on your logic begind this kinda move I wouldn't mind reading about it /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like it. First, someone prob has ragged Ace. Second, it looks like a bluff. Someone calls with any piece, which it looks like both have.

[/ QUOTE ]

let someone have a ragged ace. hero's reraise preflop could mean AK-AQ

AZK what's ur image at the table? reads?

[flawless_victory]

haha, i have like three hands that look exactly like this every session... maybe i need some aderol or something.

[Rococo]

I'm glad you posted this hand. If I look back at sessions where I feel that I played poorly, I inevitably find a couple of hands where this sort of line blew up in my face.

In my experience, players simply don't give you credit for a hand here very often. Consequently, I think that checking behind on the turn and bluffing the river works best only against 1) very weak tight players or 2) strong players who have seen me check the turn and bomb the river previously with a big made hand (like 9T here).

As LA mentioned, checking behind on the turn and value betting the river can be a good line for an overpair. The same factors that make it a good spot from which to value bet make it tough spot from which to bluff.

[chuddo]

had you posted the actions and left out your cards i do not think so many people would be jumping to say this looks like an obvious bluff.

then again i suppose it will look squarely like an agressive TT trying to move someone off a J on the end, so a bluff anyhow.

regardless, the only real comment i can give is to bet more on the flop. you 3-bet the opener preflop and got two callers, you must make a stronger continuation. it also makes the hand play easier.

[Lucky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont like it. First, someone prob has ragged Ace. Second, it looks like a bluff. Someone calls with any piece, which it looks like both have.

[/ QUOTE ]

let someone have a ragged ace. hero's reraise preflop could mean AK-AQ

AZK what's ur image at the table? reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone's in there with "ragged ace" given preflop action, there absolutely calling river. As rococo said try this against weak/tights or solids who you've recently abused on river with your twopluswtwo trickiness.

[AZK]

Yeah so this sucked. I put the first guy on a pair maybe 88 or something, and the second guy on hearts. I reallyd didn't think Axhh would call the river since I thought my hand looked like AK/AQ. First guy folded, 2nd guy called with A6s. My image wasn't crazy at the time, maybe a bit aggressive, but yeah.

As for the LA idea: right, you normally play TPTK/overpair with a pot flop, check turn, bet river. Since this is a simliar line you could take when AK misses on the flop, I have started betting more on the river with say AA because it looks like a bluff and someone with midpair will call to snap you off. Before I was making tiny river value bets, 1/3, 1/2 etc...but I think there is much more value to be had in these hands....

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I rarely find bluffs after checking behind on the turn to be profitable. Somehow, any pot-sized bet or less always gets called by somebody taking a stand when you check behind [on the turn].

[/ QUOTE ]

FoxwoodsFiend - This is a great topic/line of thinking to explore - One that has given me some trouble anyway.

So, the way we (good players, 2+2ers whatever) often play overpairs, big one pair hands is pot the flop, check the turn, bet the river for value. So, I've done this a lot in my short poker career, and I play live with a lot of the same people - some very good players who should certainly recognize different lines, yet these lines as bluffs are on the whole less successful. I bluff like this a lot - pot flop, check turn, bet 3/4-pot on the end - just like I will often play Aces, yet even the smart guys don't often seem to get it. It's as if when you bluff you have to give it this extra little push - one that should be obvious to semi decent players yet it is not.

I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting line you take on your OP's, if you wouldn't mind elaborating on your logic begind this kinda move I wouldn't mind reading about it /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The point of this line with overpairs is simple pot control. Betting overpairs on the turn when the pots already been bet on the flop is often just bloating the pot and making the river a lot tougher. Also, since the river bet looks like a bluff you're a lot more likely to get calls from worst hands than if you had bet on the turn, indicating that you're not afraid of what the person had that he was calling the flop with.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
since I thought my hand looked like AK/AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I expect to pretty much always get paid off when I bet AK/AQ like this.

[creedofhubris]

No one's commenting on the preflop, so I will. Unsuited random broadway cards = not good reraising hands. They don't make enough big hands, and when they hit top pair and get action it can cost you because it's rarely g00t.

[AZK]

Yeah, I wasn't really picking it because it was KTo, I was doing it because it was a good time. Someone else commented to me that good time or not, you should specifically NOT pick it exactly because it's KTo.

[KaneKungFu123]

id fold anything less then an Ace if im villian, so nice bet.

I'd pot it on the turn to really make it look like an overpair trying to protect against the draw.

[Saborion]

The converter reveals who calls the river bet.