I played this hand so bad

[Jason Strasser]

Final table of 150 last night.

Holdem_NL raises in early position. I respect him. He made it 12k with 2k/4k blinds and I had 60k behind in MP, he had slightly more.

I decided to flat call with AA.

Barf. I can't do this crap versus good players with this stack. A little shallower or deeper... Fine. Right?

-Jason

[ClaytonN]

It's either flatcall or push. A lot of it depends on where a 50k stack compared to the competition, but I like pushing. His hand range is likely strong enough to call allin preflop.

[mrh86]

Well, the thing is, you have no idea where you're at on the flop. You know that your aces have at least an 80% chance of winning against the villain's holdings, but you really have no idea where you're at if the flop comes with three to broadway, excluding an ace. I suppose you'd have to reraise in this position.

[gumpzilla]

How much deeper are you thinking? Once the stacks start getting sufficiently deep then I'm not wild about the slowplay because I don't think you'll get enough in implied odds to make up for what you'd get by playing it quickly, but I don't have a good sense in my head for where I think the crossover is.

I also don't really get the shallower comment. How often with 9 BBs are you flat calling a 3 BB raise with anything in MP? Maybe this is too much shallower, but it seems like unless for metagame reasons (you make it sound like you've played with this guy before) he won't put you on a big pair, this seems like a big pair. And if you're talking more like 12 BB instead, I confess that I don't see how it's qualitatively vastly different.

[Exitonly]

a push gives him 1.7:1 to call... how deep was his stack?

If you were much shorter (and were going to end up all in nomatter what) and wanted to encourage action behind you maybe i'd flat call.. and i think you'd have to be alot deeper for me to consider flat calling.

[Jason Strasser]

The only reason I'd flat call with AA with a shorter stack is because there were some weak players at the table that might put $$ in the pot if I flat call and might fold if I dont. If it was like a respectable table I'd just shove it in.

Now when I'm deeper I'll flat call a lot there because often a continuation bet on the flop might get close to pot committing someone... Also since I'll flat call with more than just aces my flat call wont spook my opponent.

-Jason

[ansky451]

Soooo, you had aces that hand...

I remember seeing that right after I busted in 9th, and wondering what you had.

Holdem_NL claimed he had xx (EDIT: I shouldn't say what he said he had) in the chatbox... I don't know if he was lying or not. I'd say his calling range isn't as wide as you might think clay, because his opening range is probably higher than one might think. If I recall correctly this was 7 handed (8 maybe?) and I think he could be opening, even utg with some speculative hands, decent suited aces, good suited connectors, and small pairs, so I don't mind taking a flop and hoping he hits it somewhat (although not with the small pairs obviously).

I think it's unfortunate that he didn't hit the flop, and very often this play will work. I probably would have not thought about it enough, and pushed, but I definitely don't mind a cold call-- unless you have played so much with him that he would immidiatly recognize this as a trap, and check/fold 66 on 238, or something like that.

[LearnedfromTV]

With this size stack, do you flat call with anything else? JJ, TT, maybe?

Edit: i guess it doesn't matter much because if he hits the flop for TPTK or TP2K, he's giving you his stack whether he thinks you're probably trapping or not. And if he flops a decent draw, it probably gets in there just as easily.

The real question is whether he folds enough hands to the raise that pay you off when they hit one pair to make up for

1. letting those same hands see the flop and outflop you

plus

2. letting high cards or medium pairs that miss the flop or flop overcards get away when they would have put money in preflop.

Seems too likely you are giving up too much value preflop, given that most hands miss most flops and your flat call declares too much strength to assume a continuation bet will come from a solid player who misses the flop. What about a minraise or close... to say 2500 or 2800? Tough for him to lay down a decent hand for 1200-1500 more, builds a pot and confuses just enough to get him to give you his stack when he flops decent.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
I decided to flat call with AA

[/ QUOTE ]

With these stacks I like to mini-raise vs good players, they just can resist the pot odds. Preflop, and then in the flop.

[LearnedfromTV]

The only other thought I have is that if there is a couple people behind you who likes to see flops and have a lot of chips (especially the BB who now has pretty enticing odds if he has a deep enough stack to lose 8k comfortably), you may be ok trying to bring them along for a big pot.

On the other hand, seeing that you are in MP (I missed that before), it is hard for me to come up with another hand that would flat call here with this stack. JJ and TT pretty much have to raise to shut out the rest of the field. But how suspicious your hand looks probably isn't too critical when this shallow.

[locutus2002]

I like the call.

Hero is short stacked and needs to stack this opponent to have a good shot at winning the tournament.

Villain's range is pretty wide to open on a short handed table. With ~15XBB left, he should be willing to let a substantial portion of his hands go (KJs, AT, 88 etc).

Since hero did not give any info regarding the strength of his hand, villain might expect to have the best hand.

Although villain's stack is workable, he needs to double up aswell and is likely to push what he thinks are marginal edges.

[Jason Strasser]

So UTG raises and you minraise around 1/3 of your stack in the pot. Could you possibly scream out your hand more? Might as well turn the hand over, right? I feel like you might win a little bit from the minraise but people will generally play very correct with you... IE they will call the minraise and either outflop AA or pickup a draw that can overtake AA later. And if they dont they may fold. Versus a hand like TT this is suicide because it will often call an all in preflop but will then play very correct vs you taking this like. Same goes for a hand like AQ where the person may actually decide to fold preflop because AQ really doesnt do well against a very strong raise.

You are right about good players not folding to the minraise. I certainly don't. You win tournaments by calling that minraise. I think a minraise is pretty terrible especially vs a good opponent. Vs a terrible opponent you might be able to build a nice pot preflop and tie them to it. But lets say your opposition has a hand like 55 or 98s. A minraise will make them play extremely correct. If you call at least they may continuation bet x% of the time and they also will have a much harder time putting you on AA.

Shania (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=&Number=533592&page=&view= &sb=5&o=&fpart=#Post533592) doesnt like this minraise.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is short stacked and needs to stack this opponent to have a good shot at winning the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

15BB's at a FT (w/ only 8 remaining) definitely does not have to stack his opponent here to have a shot at winning..

Just taking the 5BB in the pot already is plenty of help, and he'd be in good enough shape.

[locutus2002]

Hero needs to double up somehow and is unlikely to get a better shot than this.

A great hand that plays well after the flop
Position
An opponent with a similar need to double up
A weak posture

[ QUOTE ]
]
Barf. I can't do this crap versus good players with this stack. A little shallower or deeper... Fine. Right?

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

My analysis was the same before reading yours. I'm not so sure that this is wrong though. I'll crunch numbers if you supply me with raising range, calling range, and expected play on various flops.

[ QUOTE ]
Hero needs to double up somehow

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero always needs chips. This statement doesn't add anything.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero needs to double up somehow and is unlikely to get a better shot than this.

A great hand that plays well after the flop
Position
An opponent with a similar need to double up
A weak posture

[/ QUOTE ]


Doesn't need to double up so urgently, this is the FT not the early stages... No need to encourage more action here... very well may double up if you push here, villain gets decent odds (1.75:1 ish) I'd much rather push here even if villain only calls 50% of the time. 50% +5BB's 50% i'm an 80% to double up.

[locutus2002]

Raising AA BTF here is w/t

[kuro]

I don't think raising is weaktight. Villains range of hands is likely to call given his stack size and strassa's (I'd assume )aggressive image.

[fnord_too]

I don't think it is horrible. A lot depends on who is left to act, but you could call here with some middle pairs and big aces I think (since you hace 15BB, you don't have to push or fold). The rest of the stacks are important, too. Less chips (12BB or less) I think this is an auto push, since you will almost definitely be called by the raiser pre flop but he may find a correct fold on a scary flop if he has something like 99. Another thing about calling here: If you show down and win the hand you may be able to limp or call later with less chance of getting punished.

Later in the thread I think you mention that he will be less inclined to make a continuation bet with this stack if he misses. I would really not worry about that. What can he do with say AK? Check fold to a 1/2-2/3 pot size bet? If he has a PP he will pay you off some post flop. The only real questions here are how often he will fold to a pre flop push here, how likely is it someone left to act will try a squeeze, and how likely is it you will get more callers behind if you call (I really don't like the idea of having a 4 way pot here: too good a chance someone will outflop you and too little a chance you will get paid off since oponents marginal hands go down so much in value if the pot is multi-way).

[ QUOTE ]
So UTG raises and you minraise around 1/3 of your stack in the pot. Could you possibly scream out your hand more? Might as well turn the hand over, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it really give your hand away though?

I agree with what Sirio and an earlier poster suggested, a smallish reraise and a thought of what level your opponent might be thinking at.

Would you think that your opponent thinks that you think you are reraising to try and steal the pot?

Would you think that your opponent thinks that you would reraise for value in this position?

Have you been aggressively stealing from other players? Have you been trying to aggressively steal and bluff against this player recently?

I think this is one of those situations where your play needs to be dictated by recent play, what your opponents have seen you do in similar circumstances, how much they believe you, and how much do they think you have been bluffing.

I don't see anything wrong with the slow play here, UNLESS, and that is a big unless, your opponent thinks that you could easily slowplay a big hand here. If true, then you have given your hand away by the cold call, rather than by the reraise. If I consider myself a strong player, and I consider my opponent to be a strong player, then I have to consider precisely that situation among his possible thoughts.

Sometimes the most deceptive play is the most straightforward play.

I almost like the smallish reraise and then the cold call on the flop if you still feel you are ahead at that point. This gets your opponent to play at least to the turn while chasing from behind, possibly playing incorrectly all the while.

[locutus2002]

Which hands are you going to call your entire stack with after raising from UTG on a final table?

It's probably (and was) the last time hero got AA in the tournament and making 5XBB with it isn't going to alter anything.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I decided to flat call with AA

[/ QUOTE ]

With these stacks I like to mini-raise vs good players, they just can resist the pot odds. Preflop, and then in the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

what else do you min raise there with?

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
Which hands are you going to call your entire stack with after raising from UTG on a final table?

It's probably (and was) the last time hero got AA in the tournament and making 5XBB with it isn't going to alter anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making 5 BB isn't going to alter anythign??? 20BB's at a final table is more than enough to get yourself in contention for first.. and a significant increase from 15bb's.. Not to mention the fact that UTG is going to call a decent amount of the time, he'd call TT+, AKo+, and maaaybe AQs+. He's getting like 1.75:1 he's not going to just toss his hand away that easily.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
So UTG raises and you minraise around 1/3 of your stack in the pot. Could you possibly scream out your hand more?

[/ QUOTE ]

So what !!, this is not relevant in this very specific situation , the pot has about 51k, and your opponent has only about 36k left !!!, just do it, works about 99.99% of the time, and of course every time they call preflop and they bet or call my bet in the flop they knew .

[ QUOTE ]
but people will generally play very correct with you... IE they will call the minraise and either outflop AA or pickup a draw that can overtake AA later.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly the point, people will not play correctly. You are telling me that is correct to call the 12k miniraise with your "monster" implied odds?. Pot is 37k (before they call the 12k) and I have about 36k left, so they'll risk 12k to win 73k, and that is if everything goes perfectly. Are you telling me that you'll flop something better than AA with your 55 better than this odds? You said

[ QUOTE ]
will make them play extremely correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about some Math to prove your point? Something extremely correct should be easy to prove.

Besides, you're telling me that somebody with KQ

calls the miniraise PF because "it's correct" and "you win tournaments by calling that miniraise" and then

fold in a K54 flop because he knows I have AA
fold a Q34 because he know I have AA
fold a JT3 flop because he knows I have AA

[ QUOTE ]
You are right about good players not folding to the minraise. I certainly don't. You win tournaments by calling that minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh no, you don't win tournaments by making mistakes, that's for sure.

[ QUOTE ]
I think a minraise is pretty terrible especially vs a good opponent. Vs a terrible opponent you might be able to build a nice pot preflop and tie them to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are just too many flops when they are behind that are going to tie them. I understand your point about continuation bets, but I think you're right if he makes continuation bets 100% of the time, but then we're not talking about a good player, are we?. Your line is fine Jason, I just think my line work with all the players (to get the extra 12k), and your line does not work with a bunch of good players, and usually at the end of a tournament players are good. You think I have 55, the flop comes KJT and Im making a continuation bet? Hell, there are too many flops you don't win an extra chip from me with your line and your AA. And of course I'm not saying you should use the same line with all the players, you spot the player and then act accordingly.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
what else do you min raise there with?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends of the player of course. Versus a player who folds a lot post flop and not too much preflop, you add almost all the hands you are willing to play your stack with. If the player folds too much preflop after a reraise, then you just reraise more preflop with weak holdings.

[davidross]

I don't see anything wrong with this, and I'm more inclined to do it against a good player who might get off the hand if I push.

[45Player]

Maybe I’m supposed to know this but is 60k a short stack here ?
You should tell us the number of players and the average stack size.

Assuming 60 k is a shortish stack, then if you raise all-in and everybody folds,
that’s not a bad thing – you’ve increased your stack by 30%. That gives you a
bit more breathing space. Obviously you’d like to win more but 30% extra
isn’t a tragedy.

If I were very short-stacked then I believe calling is an option as you want
more players along and so you have to take a chance with AA.
However in this situation, I think calling is wrong as you’re not in very bad
shape (in relation to the blinds), and you’d prefer to get it heads-up. If you call
then there’s a fair chance the BB will come along (getting nearly 4/1). If the
button or CO has a big stack they might come along too. This is not good.

So, you have to raise. How much ?
If you know that your opponent knows that you may min-raise with a range of hands
then a min-raise is fine. But quite often an opponent will be very suspicious of a min-raise and think you have aces. So the fact that you do have aces means that a min-raise
is not a very good play. The only other option is to go all-in which is what I would do here.
The way I see it, if I go all-in and my opponent knows that I am a good aggressive player
(which I think the OP is), then what range of hands will he put me on ?
This is a matter of opinion but he could very well put me on TT up to AA, AK and even AQ.
If he has a hand like JJ he may well call the all-in (getting over 1.6/1 odds)
He may also decide that I would not do this with such a strong hand as AA which would encourage his call even more.
Also I think your opponent has to give extra weight to you having AK because this is
exactly what you would do with AK in this situation. So he may even call with a medium pair.

Any criticism appreciated.

Regards

45

[Jason Strasser]

Sigh.

The poker player inside of me hates violating my basic mantra, which is that when I make a move or do something, the absolute worst thing I can do is telegraph my hand. I also think about the minraise that people will fold AQ, KQ type hands because its so obvious you are running into a monster. I suppose they are making a slightly -EV calling the minraise with a pocket pair, but the reason I said you win tournaments by making calls like this is because its probably OK for good players to risk that extra call of the minraise in hopes of winning the huge pot instead of folding which leaves them with 40 something k versus 30 something k. It's also not -EV by hardly much, but I don't really care to do the math now. But if you did some ICM crap I'm sure it wouldnt come out to anywhere near an egregious error.

Anyway I'm sure there is some merit to your play I just wont have any of it. I'd much rather shove it all in there and let my opponent think about the wide range of hands I could have here than minraise and give my opponent the idea that his weak hand is not meant to be played that way.

It's just not good poker to play with your cards face up, sorry I can't really explain myself better today. If you had a way of working in more minraises in this spot with a wider range of hands I might buy it... But as you can probably tell there are some pretty serious problems with minraising a lot preflop with stacks like this without a hand you want to go to the felt with... I really feel like minraising is worse than calling and worse than an all in.

-Jason

[bugstud]

shania likes it if you would do it with hands other than AA. Holdem_nl might be one of the few guys that would respect this and fold a big hand, esoecially against you.

[betgo]

I don't see the point of this. The raiser is getting good pot odds, and he is likely to call a push. All the money may not go in if you flat call either. You can lose with aces, so it is not a terrible result to pick up a significant pot without a fight.

Plus, flat calling for a big portion of your stack looks strange and may clue people as to what you have.

Flat calling a raise with aces is OK with deeper money, particularly is the raiser is likely to be aggressive later in the hand or someone is likely to come over top.