2 hands against a rock

[GuyOnTilt]

Here's two 3/6 hands from Party against a strong player whom I respect, and who also respects my play.

Hand 1:

I'm dealt T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif T /forums/images/icons/club.gif in the BB. EMP rock open-raises. All fold to me and I call (looking back, should've 3-bet).

Flop comes: J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif A /forums/images/icons/club.gif

I check, he bets, I call.

Turn comes: 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif [J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif A /forums/images/icons/club.gif ]

I check, he bets, I check-raise. He thinks and thinks and thinks, and finally mucks it.

Hand 2:

I'm dealt K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif on the button. UTG rock limps, folds to me and I raise trying to get heads up. Both blinds come along and UTG rock calls.

Flop comes: 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

SB check, BB check, UTG bets, I raise to get heads up. Both blinds fold and UTG 3-bets. I cap, he calls.

Turn comes: 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif [7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ]

UTG checks, I bet, UTG check-raises, I make it 3, he calls.

River comes: 3 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif [2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ]

He checks, I bet, He raises, I think and think and think. And finally reraise. He calls.

Any thoughts on either hand? Results and thoughts to follow.

[hutz]

Hand 2: If this guy is truly a "rock" then why are you going to war with him on either the turn or river? A rock who goes nutty like that is telling you he has something. Indeed, you may have been drawing dead to 77, 44, or 22 as soon as the board paired. I'd be shocked if you won this hand and, even if you did, I'd be willing to say your play was -EV long-term.

[RockLobster]

Any thoughts on either hand?

Hand 1: Nice play against this opponent.
Hand 2: I can't understand the turn cap or the battle on the river. Your description tells us that he has you beat to a pulp.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hand 1:

I don't know because he didn't tell me, but if I had to guess I'd say my opponent mucked AQ or AJ. As I said, I think I should've 3-bet PF, but it turns out my mere call bought me the pot. I think he assumed I had either AK, or KJ, QJ or JT, and folded his ace on the turn. I think he would've stuck around for the river if he had AK, becuase he might've thought there was a possibility of AK or AQ, but his fold makes me believe he had AQ or AJ.

Questions) Should I have bet out on the flop and called his probably raise? Or was this a check-fold situation? The only reason I stayed in the hand after the flop was because I thought I could push him off of his ace. If he had gone 3 on the turn, I would've mucked.

Hand 2:

We both put each other on overcards obviously. From what I've seen of this opponent, he's good. Any ace that he'd play in EP would be raised. Therefore, I figured I was ahead the whole way. The only hand that I was fearing was a medium pocket pair. I can see him limping in UTG with 8's, maybe 9's. But this whole hand I think we both put each other on overcards and thought our respective hands were better. Turns out, my deuces with the KQ7 was good. My guess is he had KJs or KTs.

Questions) Since I was a PF raiser and he continually played back at me, should I assumed he had the mid pocket pair and laid down? If so, when? Or will my read here be correct enough of the time to warrant my play? Was the reraise on the river the right move? I thought his check-raises on the turn and river were meant to scare me off of my overcards.

So...was my play on these hands good? Reckless? Too aggressive for my hands? These are both definitely player-dependent plays, but do you like my reads?

[smd]

In hand 1, your opponent does not have AJ- he would have to be a real rock to lay that one down.

He could have also held KK or QQ?

[Homer]

Hand 1

Preflop - With this hand against a solid opponent who has raised from UTG I call and plan on mucking on the flop unless I flop a set, overpair, or only one non-ace overcard comes on the flop (something like Q86). I wouldn't three-bet because you aren't a favorite to win the hand (you're a big underdog against JJ and up and a small favorite against AK/AQ) and three-betting is unlikely to get your opponent to lay down a better hand later. If he has overcards it will be just as easy to get him to lay his hand down later as it would have been had you not three-bet preflop.

Flop - CHECK-FOLD. Doing anything else is going to cost you money. What could he have that you aren't drawing to 2 outs against? If you are going to continue with the hand check-raise with it right here. Don't wait until the turn when it is going to cost you much more to try it. If he has QQ/KK he is just as likely to fold here as he is on the turn.

Turn - Like I said, if you are going to pull a move like this, do it on the flop. If he is a solid player, he will fold KK/QQ there just as easily as he would on the expensive street. Your play may be more valid against a poor player, who is more likely to fold to a checkraise on the expensive street, but against this player check-raise the flop if you are going to continue with the hand (and again, I think you have a really easy check-fold on the flop).

Hand 2

Preflop - I would limp. Most people will think I'm nuts for limping on the button after only one limper, but since that limper is a solid player I would do so and let the blinds in. If you hit a hand there's a decent chance it will have hit the limper too, and you can raise then to get it heads-up. He'll be more likely to call you down because the fact that you raised preflop will deceive him into thinking you have a weaker hand than you do. Also, if you flop a draw, you might be glad you have a couple of additional opponents hanging around.

I might get some heat for this recommendation. I hope I'm explaining myself properly.

Flop - Fine

Turn - Take the free card. He three-bet the flop and no doubt has an overpair (or has a set and is looking to checkraise the turn) that he will not lay down to your turn bet. If you aren't going to take the free-card you shouldn't four-bet the flop.

Wow, you three-bet?! I don't know what you're trying to do. He three-bet you on the flop, and check-raised you on the turn. He has you beat. Get to the river as cheaply as possible; just call his checkraise.

River - This is starting to look like some kind of contest to see who can raise more. Give up on the river. Check it through. He will call and his hand will be better than K-high. Once he checkraises again you must fold. There is no way he is going to fold to a river three-bet. He will call since the pot is so large and hope that he has you beaten.

-- Homer

[CrackerZack]

If you defintion of rock is the same as mine, then you should check my definition of maniac also... its quite a likeness.

hand 1 against a rock I check-fold the flop.

hand 2 against I rock after the flop 3-bet, i'm calling and praying for a spade.

[CrackerZack]

There is no way your opponent is a rock if you can win hand 2 in a showdown. From the flop on that hand was played with a huge -EV against any sane opponent. After seeing the hand history of this one I'd put you both down as maniacs. You a bit less since you had a spade draw.

[Homer]

hand 1 against a rock I check-fold the flop.

Absolutely agree.

hand 2 against I rock after the flop 3-bet, i'm calling and praying for a spade.

Disagree. Cap the flop and take the free card on the turn. Since the opponent limped preflop there is a good chance that hero has 15 outs (3 K's, 3 Q's, 9 spades), so his raise is about neutral EV even disregarding the possibility of getting a free card on the turn. I realize rock could have a set making the K's and Q's no good, but I think there is still a good chance at this point that he has an overpair (<QQ). Even if he does have hero beat he may foolishly (oh wait, it worked in this case) try for a checkraise on the turn, in which case hero should happily check it through.

-- Homer

[eMarkM]

"Rock" is a very poor description of this player. Obviously, he didn't lay down AJ, I mean c'mon. And I know of no rock that will do all this betting and raising without being able to beat the K high you won with in 2nd hand. Sounds like a maniac, not a rock. Way overplayed by both of you. I can't believe he would call you down without even a pair.

[CrackerZack]

Hand 2,
While I can see your point and frequently in my local games will cap the flop after a 3-bet and take the free card on the turn against players I've dubbed as rocks (which are few) a limp pre-flop then this action screams set. If the player is rock-ish but will limp with some suited connectors early or possibly middle pairs and push the flop with them, I think the 4-bet/free card is a good play. You're gonna pay the 3 bets anyway, might as well risk the extra SB to try to save a BB on the next card. And I find it tremendously effective.