Weak Tight you say Mikel?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

The recent post by mikel where he talks about being "weak tight on the river lately" made me think about this hand to talk about.

30-60 Bellagio dayshift. Babe is on the button vs. solid playing Black guy. HEY, the fact he is Black is irrelevant but used here only for descriptive purposes.

Local "loaded" lady limps 2UTG. Folded to black guy who is in the c/o. Black guy raises and I 3 bet with offsuit kings from the button. Local loaded lady calls and Black guy calls.

Flop is 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Checked to me and I bet. Turn is 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Checked to me and I bet. Local loaded lady now folds.

River is J /images/graemlins/club.gif

Black guy checks and I check.

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[sthief09]

how often do you think he pays you off with 99 or 88? mathematically 4 times as likely he has those hands over JJ so you have to be pretty sure he won't pay you off

[mplspoker]

Pokerbabe.. if you are not making this bet you need to move WAY down in limits.. I hope this is a joke. Although i have listened to you on "Live at the Bike" and your lack of value betting wouldn't surprise me..

[mike l.]

that's a pretty bad river check there babe. and prepare to have about 40 people tell you so in this thread.

and watch out for those coloreds, theyre a wily bunch.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
that's a pretty bad river check there babe. and prepare to have about 40 people tell you so in this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]


1 down and 39 to go...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[SinCityGuy]

With the information you've given, I would bet the river and fold to a checkraise against this guy.

[andyfox]

I heard this story, which I relate second (third?) hand.

There was a dispute in a no-limit game at Commerce where a player was taking an inordinate amount of time to make a decision. A black player said something about it. The inordinate time-taker replied that the black man was stupid because he is black. The bigot was thrown out of the club.

Apparently the two met outside. The black guy is, I believe, a former NBA player. I'd put him at about six-six. His opponent was about five-eight and slightly built.

Next thing you know the big black guy has the little guy by the neck, and Jack is trying to break it up; Jack is grabbing the big guy around his neck, and being whipped around by the guy like a rag doll. A scene right out of WWF.

Sorry I don't know the end of the story. Just another day in paradise/Commerce.

[andyfox]

While this might not have been her proudest moment, I can assure you Pokerbabe does not need to move down in limit. She does quite well in the games she plays in, thank you.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3 bet with offsuit kings from the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you'd only smoothcall suited kings, right? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Nice to see you back on here Babe.

ummm...bet the river.

b

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that's a pretty bad river check there babe. and prepare to have about 40 people tell you so in this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]


1 down and 39 to go...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

38 and counting...

Lawrence

[MitchL]

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerbabe.. if you are not making this bet you need to move WAY down in limits.. I hope this is a joke. Although i have listened to you on "Live at the Bike" and your lack of value betting wouldn't surprise me..

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that's a pretty bad river check there babe. and prepare to have about 40 people tell you so in this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]


1 down and 39 to go...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

38 and counting...

Lawrence


[/ QUOTE ]

BET THE [censored] RIVER

37.....

[etizzle]

wow

36

[surfdoc]

Even a guy as weak tight as me finds that to be weak tight.

35

[Justin A]

Ugh.

34.

[ggbman]

[censored] guys relax, she obviously misclicked. dont worry pokerbabe, you can do no wrong in my eyes /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And yes you should bet this river

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]


Local "loaded" lady limps 2UTG. Folded to black guy who is in the c/o. Black guy raises and I 3 bet with offsuit kings from the button. Local loaded lady calls and Black guy calls.



[/ QUOTE ]

You know I love ya, Babe...but are you sure she wasn't the only lady who was loaded that day? Why no bet? The only reasonable hand he has here that beats you is JJ....he certainly doesn't have JT...

So when are we playing golf again? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Gabe]

live at the bike pokerbabe is a different person.

[kurosh]

This is an autoplay hand imo.

33

[captZEEbo1]

I think the bigger question is how bad of a hand do you need to value bet this river? I assume everyone is betting QT here too? How low of a pocket pair would you value bet (if at all)?

[nummerfire]

Why bet. If she is the lady named Robin I played at the Mirage 20-40 last year I certainly would not call with over fifty percent of the hands she have beat

Kim

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Actually, as Gabe noted, I am not the pokerbabe at the bike. That person took my "handle" and is trying to pass herself off as THE original PokerBabe /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The real PokerBabe checks this river against this SOLID playing Black guy for the following reasons.


1). He does NOT have a RBP (really big pair) like KK or AA as he doesn't 4 bet preflop which he would do about 100% of the time. So, we have to narrow his possible holdings down from there.

2), There is a 10 on the flop and he can BEAT a 10 since he called the flop. He would check raise the turn with a set of 10s here about 100% of the time, so when he just calls the turn, I am pretty sure he has an overpair less than KK.

3). If he can beat a 10 with an overpair less than KK that means he has exactly two holdings and they are JJ and QQ.

4). His check calling pattern throughout the hand works perfectly for his plan to induce when he spikes on the river. He is now darn sure I have an overpair to the board and the innoculous looking Jack makes it very likely I will bet my overpair on the river.

5). By checking the river I get to see if my read was correct. And it was. Fortunately for me, it's probable that he will now always bet his hand on the river against me when he is leading.

LGPG,
Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Dominic,

You said it. The only hand he has that beats me is JJ and you got it right. So...., why bet? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I am ready to play golf any Mon or Tues. Let's do so so.

Love to Erika,

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Sin,

Yes, that is the only other way to play this river. Most of the posters here would pay off the check raise.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Mike,

Feel free to bet on and pay off the Black guy. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I would probably never check this against you, btw. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[AJo Go All In]

what a random player should value bet and what pokerbabe should value bet are not the same thing

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Kim,

You have a good memory. I am Robyn from the Mirage.

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Andy,

Nice to see you, as always. I do so dig those new glasses you got. They are MAD COOL as leon would say. /images/graemlins/cool.gif Actually, this was my "proudest moment" because I saved myself 60 bucks that I can use toward that dinner I owe you.

Let's do it next time you are in town.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Spot on AJ all in. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

He NEVER ever pays me off with 99 or 88 here.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
3). If he can beat a 10 with an overpair less than KK that means he has exactly two holdings and they are JJ and QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 6 combos of QQ and 3 combos of JJ he can have. Are you assuming he's going to be folding QQ >50% of the time?

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, as Gabe noted, I am not the pokerbabe at the bike. That person took my "handle" and is trying to pass herself off as THE original PokerBabe /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The real PokerBabe checks this river against this SOLID playing Black guy for the following reasons.


1). He does NOT have a RBP (really big pair) like KK or AA as he doesn't 4 bet preflop which he would do about 100% of the time. So, we have to narrow his possible holdings down from there.

2), There is a 10 on the flop and he can BEAT a 10 since he called the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why can't he have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif or K /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif going for his flush draw the whole way, now he spikes one of his cards and calls...? (Note: I wouldn't play those hands the same way in this spot, but many could and would.)

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[MrTeddyKGB]

[ QUOTE ]
Black guy checks and I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi robyn its scott, I did not know you were pokerbabe. Even though I play against you often I will help you here. If I was not so busy deciding if I was going to pay of a river blank I would have bet the river myself because you have a bad habit of checking the river with the best hand on the end too often.

For what it is worth your anaysis of this hand is correct but you tend to give me too narrow a hand range in general. To the point I did not like my Jacks vs. your three bet even though they my hand was way in the upper end of my range of raising hands in this spot. Like I said I was not even sure if I was going to pay of the river and only called the turn because I felt like there was a good chance you would give me a free showdown. Overall I think you are solid but miss some value bets that I would expect someone with your obvious knowlage of the game to make. You are right that QQ is probably the only hand I would pay you off with here.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Black guy checks and I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi robyn its scott, I did not know you were pokerbabe.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is funny. You didn't know who she was but you knew it was you due to being called the "black guy" in the hand. We definitely need to diversify this game some...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[MrTeddyKGB]

[ QUOTE ]
This is funny. You didn't know who she was but you knew it was you due to being called the "black guy" in the hand. We definitely need to diversify this game some...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
30-60 Bellagio dayshift, solid playing Black guy

[/ QUOTE ]

I was 99% sure it was me already at this point before I even read the hand. I was also pretty sure it was robyn when I read that also because she has to be the only female day player there that could possibly be a 2+2er.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

I was 99% sure it was me already at this point before I even read the hand. I was also pretty sure it was robyn when I read that also because she has to be the only female day player there that could possibly be a 2+2er.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, I forgot that the specifics of the location were given as well -- thought you pulled that out of nowhere, which is where the (minimal) amount of humor was found.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[MrTeddyKGB]

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, I forgot that the specifics of the location were given as well -- thought you pulled that out of nowhere, which is where the (minimal) amount of humor was found.



[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was funny also. I also thought it was funny I knew it was robyn before I read the hand as well.

<SARCASM>

yeah, you missed a value bet, you really suck and should let this one mistake (?) be the reason you quit poker forever or at least move back down to the 4-8 at bellagio.

I bet I know which "loaded local lady" you're talking about....I think she's originally from NY or NJ..???

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Yikes, so my cover is blown? LOL. /images/graemlins/grin.gif It really is a small world.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Her name starts with an N and if I had her money, I wouldn't have to play poker at all. If I did play, it would be something a bit higher. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

LGPG /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
He NEVER ever pays me off with 99 or 88 here.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

And that has nothing to do with the fact that you never, ever, ever bluff on the river?

[mike l.]

"Feel free to bet on and pay off the Black guy. I would probably never check this against you, btw."

irrelevant because i would never let myself get to the river with only JJ in a hand where you 3 bet preflop and kept betting on the flop and turn.

it's great you play in such rancid games that you can narrow down the other weak tight player's hands so perfectly and make value checks like this. unfortunately the rest of us play in games where our opponents (even the solid, black ones) are so loose they can have a wide variety of holdings here, so, for us, not value betting KK here is unthinkable.

LBPLS

Yessss....I frequent the 30-60 one weekend/month, and have come to know the regulars, and every time I'm there it seems she's there....small world. Well, not really. lol.

[surfdoc]

You really need to change your handle to The Black Guy

[andyfox]

Done deal.

Regards,
Andy

LMAO!!!!

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
You are right that QQ is probably the only hand I would pay you off with here.

[/ QUOTE ]

but your range is higher here than qq and jj. you could have ajh or kjh. also, if the babe often follows thru on the turn with aq and ak then gives a free sd then you could have a10 or 88, 99.

you are saying you fold these to the river bet? cool. they are likely good folds against this type of player and i would likely do the same. pokerbabe mentions that she knows she only gets paid off by the qq here.

so my question is, hey babe, why the hell dont you bluff the riv with ak and aq?

you have cultivated this image for so long now, its time to start stealing a few pots here and there.

[M2d]

Hey Robyn,
fwiw, on the internet it's a bet. in most rl situations, it's a bet. for certain players, given their local knowledge and real life reads, it's a check. I think that's what a lot of posters are missing.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3). If he can beat a 10 with an overpair less than KK that means he has exactly two holdings and they are JJ and QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 6 combos of QQ and 3 combos of JJ he can have. Are you assuming he's going to be folding QQ >50% of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

you make a very important point and its unfortunate it got lost in the thread. its also surprising no one else has mentioned this.

to go further, if she is paying off the cr its a breakeven scenario. if she can fold its an easy value bet.

babe says: [ QUOTE ]
5). By checking the river I get to see if my read was correct. And it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont you know your read is correct if you get checkraised or called? you put him on qq, if he calls your read is correct and you make 6 bets. you put him on jj and he checkraises and you fold and lose 3 bets.

[skp]

Babe, I assume that you saved $120 if he had JJ because you would have called a checkraise, no?

That said, your saving $60 or $120 here by checking in spots such as these is probably costing you a lot more than that on other occasions where your hand is good.

You should have bet the river.

[amulet]

i am often accused here of being weak tight, which i do not agree.

i bet the river here without hesitation. no show of strength by the opponent so far, it is a clear value bet.

[skp]

Babe,

I think you ought to try the following for a week and see what happens:

1. Every time a solid playing black, yellow or white guy raises preflop, just smoothcall his raise with KK and AA and show aggression postflop instead.

On the other hand, if a not so solid playing brown guy raises (when he is in your town starting tommorow), you should call all bets to the river and then fold...heh

2. Always bet missed hands on the river when headsup (even AK or AQ which is normally a check and showdown hand for most of us on the river). It sounds like guys in your game are willing to fold to your river bets even if they have an overpair to the board because you always show them a big overpair when they do call.

[amulet]

Erika, Howard Bliss asked me to tell you that this was a value bet on the river.

[mike l.]

who's erika?

[mike l.]

"you have cultivated this image"

no she didnt. she just doesnt know how to play any other way. she plays weak tight because she is weak tight. she hasnt been purposefully creating an image she can now exploit by playing differently. she's not capable of that. the very best players are.

CULTIVATE: to foster the growth of c : to improve by labor, care, or study :

[andyfox]

I don't think it's accurate to say she doesn't know how to play any other way. She plays in a way with which she's comfortable. She's comfortable with it because she wins and because it suits her personality. It's not possible that she doesn't know how to play any differently. Everyone knows how to play differently.

[andyfox]

So a respected poster (deservedly so) posts this:

"5 handed 20/40. mediocre type limps utg, i raise on the button with AKo. Flop comes KQ8. He check calls. Turn 8 he check calls. River 9. He checks. He's exactly Jack Ten. I know it. I feel it. He wants to check-raise. But I have a good two pair. It's 5 handed. I have to bet, dammit. So I do. He check-raises. Damn, I hand read well - he does have JT and the voice in my head tells me to fold. I've been listening to lately and it's been working well. Why didn't I listen this time and check? Now what. Every part of my body is telling me to fold. It's gotta be the right play. But then my ego takes over and I want to prove myself right. I call. He shows JT and drags the pot. I hope I never do that again."

He "knows" he is beat but bets and calls a raise. Nobody says much, except that he should have trusted his spidey sense.

Now Pokerbabe says basically the same thing, except that she saved $120 instead of losing $80.

And apparently it's a crime against humanity.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
Now Pokerbabe says basically the same thing, except that she saved $120 instead of losing $80.

[/ QUOTE ]

given the hand ranges that will call or cr this river, pokerbabe breaks even by betting and calling the cr.

6 ways to have qq and gain a bet. 3 ways to have jj and cr to lose 2bets. now if she can fold to the cr......

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, as Gabe noted, I am not the pokerbabe at the bike. That person took my "handle" and is trying to pass herself off as THE original PokerBabe /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The real PokerBabe checks this river against this SOLID playing Black guy for the following reasons.


1). He does NOT have a RBP (really big pair) like KK or AA as he doesn't 4 bet preflop which he would do about 100% of the time. So, we have to narrow his possible holdings down from there.

2), There is a 10 on the flop and he can BEAT a 10 since he called the flop. He would check raise the turn with a set of 10s here about 100% of the time, so when he just calls the turn, I am pretty sure he has an overpair less than KK.

3). If he can beat a 10 with an overpair less than KK that means he has exactly two holdings and they are JJ and QQ.

4). His check calling pattern throughout the hand works perfectly for his plan to induce when he spikes on the river. He is now darn sure I have an overpair to the board and the innoculous looking Jack makes it very likely I will bet my overpair on the river.

5). By checking the river I get to see if my read was correct. And it was. Fortunately for me, it's probable that he will now always bet his hand on the river against me when he is leading.

LGPG,
Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than you not discounting a flopped draw since he didn't raise the flop, I can buy in with this read. To a point.

Basically, you're saying he married his overpair on the turn when he'd get rid of 88 or 99 by then as it is unlikely that you'd have a 10 or any piece of this flop.

The fact he had an overpair clouded his mind enough to call for his 2 outer.

That and his raising standards in that situation preflop are pretty tight. Meaning he wouldn't raise with 88 or 99 in that spot preflop. Otherwise, those 2 hands should be factored in in the decision to bet the river since, again, he knows you likely have no piece of that flop given your preflop 3 bet. (unless your preflop 3 betting standards have changed from what is known on here)

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
So a respected poster (deservedly so) posts this:

"5 handed 20/40. mediocre type limps utg, i raise on the button with AKo. Flop comes KQ8. He check calls. Turn 8 he check calls. River 9. He checks. He's exactly Jack Ten. I know it. I feel it. He wants to check-raise. But I have a good two pair. It's 5 handed. I have to bet, dammit. So I do. He check-raises. Damn, I hand read well - he does have JT and the voice in my head tells me to fold. I've been listening to lately and it's been working well. Why didn't I listen this time and check? Now what. Every part of my body is telling me to fold. It's gotta be the right play. But then my ego takes over and I want to prove myself right. I call. He shows JT and drags the pot. I hope I never do that again."

He "knows" he is beat but bets and calls a raise. Nobody says much, except that he should have trusted his spidey sense.

Now Pokerbabe says basically the same thing, except that she saved $120 instead of losing $80.

And apparently it's a crime against humanity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Babes description was different. Just saying 'solid playing black guy' isn't enough to warrant the river check as a solid player can be raising preflop and play to the river with a little wider range than just QQ or JJ. If she mentioned he had tight raising standards no matter the position or whatever weakie limps in prior, that's can paint a little clearer picture.

She also made no mention of her 'spidey sense' during the hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I will say though, that live you can get that read easier just by how they check call during the streets. She also made no mention of that.



Basically her initial post is :

Solid player in CO raises a limper, I 3 bet on the button with KK.

Flop comes 10 high 2-tone. check, check, I bet, 2 calls.

Blank on turn: check, check, bet, limper folds, solid guy calls

River J: check behind.

Pretty bare bones really.

b

[BarronVangorToth]

Agreed, not knowing the people involved, and from the description given, I think this is a bet on the river.

Factor in other factors - reads on the players - specific info from being there - some other tidbits - sure, this could be a case for checking.

But not from what is given, I don't think.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[skp]

But is she saying the same thing as BK?

I didn't read her post as an example of her spidey sense going off and letting her hands follow what her brain is telling her (which is what BK didn't do). Rather, I read it as an illustration that generally speaking, she and this particular opponent of hers know each other's game so well that it can only mean that they are not being in the least bit deceptive against each other.

I mean, for Babe to know that this guy can only have JJ or QQ means that she also must know that he knows with certainty that she can only have QQ, KK, or AA (if she bets the river).

To me, that means that Babe is being too predictable and indeed that is what her opponent has said in this thread.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
3). If he can beat a 10 with an overpair less than KK that means he has exactly two holdings and they are JJ and QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the case and he never bluff checkraises, why on earth would you not bet here and fold to a raise?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
You are right that QQ is probably the only hand I would pay you off with here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against such a predictable player, why are you calling with QQ here? Sounds like she can ONLY have TT-AA (if even that wide) when she bets the turn, and by the river, you lose to them all except tie w/ QQ.

[Ulysses]

Andy,

First off, you are being results oriented. Against this opponent's range and possible actions, sure in this instance she saved a bet, but she is not saving bets with this play, she is losing money with it.

As for the other post you cited, this was a case of a guy paying a bet to see what the other guy had to satisfy his ego and show that he was right. He admits that's what he was doing, and from a poker EV standpoint, a very bad move.

The reason the reactions are different is because pokerbabe is positioning her action as a good play, which it wasn't.

[mike l.]

dude i ripped him up on that thread, but only on the semantics of titling the post as he did. he deserves credit though for having the guts to post it knowing it was poorly played. this forum is best when it's part tutorial, part confessional.

one problem is the babe always defend her posts to the death even when nearly everyone says she's wrong.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Andy,

I also find it remarkable that my good plays are always discounted by many posters on this site.

Fortunately, I am not looking for approval.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

skp,

No, I don't pay off a check raise on the river to this guy. Nope, uh uh....no way.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi El D,

Thanks for the input.

Both you and sincity suggested this alternate play on the river. I could have bet/folded to a ch/raise but then I don't see his hand.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi skp

You are correct that knowing opponents means they are often "predictable". That makes it easy for me to check when I am behind and to bet when I am ahead. /images/graemlins/confused.gif Oh, wait....this is too easy isn't it?

Hey, maybe we can rendevous for lunch at the Indian restaurant and we can discuss the babe's play over some curry. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

LBPLS /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

And this would be "look bad play loose and stupid"? LOL. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

The reason the reactions are different is because pokerbabe is positioning her action as a good play, which it wasn't.

Hi El D,

I am indeed positioning this as a play for this hand vs. this particular opponent. Over an infinite number of trials, checking this board on the river would be an error. In this particular case, checking seems right to me.

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

for certain players, given their local knowledge and real life reads, it's a check. I think that's what a lot of posters are missing.


Hi M2d,

Yes, it's clear that some people missed the point on this one.

LGPG /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

i am often accused here of being weak tight, which i do not agree.

Amulet,
Even people more famous than the Babe have been accused of being weak-tight. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

And that has nothing to do with the fact that you never, ever, ever bluff on the river?

Really? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[amulet]

lol. i feel comfortable with both my play and the posts i make (despite that i often disagree with many others here.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
In this particular case, checking seems right to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Would you say that if he rolled QQ? You and your opponent explain why it was that given your respective styles, he was going to have JJ or QQ here. If that is the case, the fact that he had JJ in this particular case does not make checking more correct. Understanding that concept is important if you care about maximizing your winrate in this game.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
i am often accused here of being weak tight, which i do not agree.

Amulet,
Even people more famous than the Babe have been accused of being weak-tight. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your insistence on the 3rd person is extremely disturbing. That is all.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
skp,

No, I don't pay off a check raise on the river to this guy. Nope, uh uh....no way.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes checking an egregious mistake. 6>3.

[obi---one]

[ QUOTE ]
He NEVER ever pays me off with 99 or 88 here.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense to you babe, but that is why your style is sub-optimal. do you know how hard it is to win when you have to have an overpair against his overpair. and he is just calling? granted, you probably play live, in vegas or la. where their are just absolutely horrible players (in those mid-limit games), who never catch on.

Good check and all.....

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3). If he can beat a 10 with an overpair less than KK that means he has exactly two holdings and they are JJ and QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the case and he never bluff checkraises, why on earth would you not bet here and fold to a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

DING DING DING!!!

Lawrence

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Lawrence,

Yes, Sincity guy suggested this as the other possible play here. However, as I noted before, I don't see his hand unless I pay off a ch/raise.

Thanks for the input.

LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Uh I think this is the "second" person Subfallen. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Perhaps an English expert can clarify.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi El,

Of course, it's incorrect to be results oriented here. I mentioned earlier in the tread that if I am going to fold to a checkraise, I don't get the heuristic benefit of seeing scott's hand. Maybe that isn't really important to you, but gaining information like that from a player that I really RESPECT is worth alot to me.

I do understand your point that missing a bet on the river when he holds QQ can be a big mistake OVERTHE LONG RUN.

Your point is well taken.

Thanks for the input.

Babe/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
solid playing Black guy. HEY, the fact he is Black is irrelevant

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is the "second" person Subfallen. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Perhaps an English expert can clarify.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

heuristic benefit

[/ QUOTE ]


For those few (where "few" = 0-2 people) wondering what my favorite three bits of this thread are...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Ezcheeze]

So if a similar situation came up where all the action was the same, and your reads were the same, would you bet or check the river?

[Turning Stone Pro]

Easy river bet, not even close. Another example of a sub-optimal play (as Obi correctly points out), which is defended with all the "you dont know the local customs, players, facial ticks, etc" bulls**t. (Although this potentially (albeit marginally) useful information is inexplicably left absent from the original post).

If he has a 7, he check-raises turn. There is no flush, two pair is not a risk with the pair on board, only hand he can possibly have that you cant beat is 89s.

The check on the river is weak. Let's move along to some real posts. Where's Tommy?

TSP

[znup]

(Teddy) .... Bet the river.

[amulet]

it is 3ed person. do you want an explaination? his remake was pointless to any poker discussion, and i am not sure an english lesson adds anything.

[ErrantNight]

1st person: I (e.g.: I am the greatest.)

2nd person: you (e.g.: You are the greatest)

3rd person: they (e.g.: Derek is the greatest)

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh I think this is the "second" person Subfallen. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Perhaps an English expert can clarify.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or perhaps we could just use the the internet! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_person)

"Grammatical person, in linguistics, is deictic reference to the participant role of a referent, such as the speaker, the addressee, and others. Grammatical person typically defines a language's set of personal pronouns. It also frequently affects verbs, sometimes nouns, and possessive relationships as well.

English traditionally distinguishes three grammatical persons:

The personal pronouns I and we are said to be in the first person. The speaker uses this in the singular to refer to himself or herself; in the plural, to speak of a group of people including the speaker.

The personal pronoun you is in the second person. It refers to the addressee. You is used in both the singular and plural; thou is the archaic second-person singular pronoun.

All other pronouns and all nouns are in the third person. Anyone or anything other than the speaker and the addressee is referred to in the third person."

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
but gaining information like that from a player that I really RESPECT is worth alot to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really need to see that he has JJ when he checkraises you? Since your read on him is so perfect, I wouldn't think you'd need to see his hand to know what he has. Either your read is not so perfect and you should be betting, or you really don't need to see his hand and you should be betting.

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but gaining information like that from a player that I really RESPECT is worth alot to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really need to see that he has JJ when he checkraises you? Since your read on him is so perfect, I wouldn't think you'd need to see his hand to know what he has. Either your read is not so perfect and you should be betting, or you really don't need to see his hand and you should be betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have nothing else worth adding, but i was wondering this same thing.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
(Teddy) .... Bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen this mentioned much in this thread. Given the situation and Teddy knowing that Babe wouldn't fall for the check-raise shouldn't he bet out? Babe can't fold to that...thoughts?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

only hand he can possibly have that you cant beat is 89s.

No,that is no true. For openers, Teddy is most likely not raising preflop with 8,9 suited. /images/graemlins/confused.gif So, that is really not a hand I am putting him on. The hands I put him on were JJ or QQ.

As for the lack of my description of "local players habits, etc.", please recall that I described Teddy as solid. What this means is that he doesn't spew chips aimlessly and he's not going to make too many mistakes. I thought that was self-explanatory.

Sorry if you are bored. Go get a job or something.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

The hands I put him on were JJ or QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do Jacks and Queen check-call that flop and check-call that turn...?

Regardless of what your image is, you could have AK / AQ easily enough to warrant check-raising somewhere IF one were to put him on those holdings...

Barring some magical twinkle he gave off on the river Jack, I still can't see this not being a bet, with the information we were given.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but gaining information like that from a player that I really RESPECT is worth alot to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really need to see that he has JJ when he checkraises you? Since your read on him is so perfect, I wouldn't think you'd need to see his hand to know what he has. Either your read is not so perfect and you should be betting, or you really don't need to see his hand and you should be betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sums up my thoughts on this perfectly. If the assumptions that PB is making her decisions on are correct, then a bet is clearly right. If they are not correct and he has a wide enough range that there is a benefit to gaining info here, then a bet is clearly right.

Let me reiterate that last point. If there is any benefit from seeing his hand, then betting is clearly the correct move. Does that make sense, PB?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Sorry if these comments are taken out of context Barron. The fact that I see some humor in these remaks apparently eludes you. However, I was certainly not making a racial slur against Scott. My point was that I was simply describing him as a black guy and that I used the term black guy was "irrelvant" to the post.



LGPG

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[PokerBabe(aka)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The hands I put him on were JJ or QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do Jacks and Queen check-call that flop and check-call that turn...? /images/graemlins/confused.gif Barron, did you miss the part where I said Teddy had pocket Jacks ? Yes, Jacks and Queens do check call that flop and turn.

Regardless of what your image is, you could have AK / AQ easily enough to warrant check-raising somewhere IF one were to put him on those holdings...

/images/graemlins/crazy.gif This statement is confusing, as I cannot check raise him since he acts first in the hand. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Barring some magical twinkle he gave off on the river Jack, I still can't see this not being a bet, with the information we were given.
Well, Barron, don't feel too bad about that. Apparently, nobody can see this check on the river except me and maybe Teddy. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

LGPG
Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[ErrantNight]

Why do you need/want to see his hand so badly?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi errant.

I actually think that handreading is a very important skill and I like to see whether I am reading well or not. I don't ALWAYS try to see what my opponents have, but in this case, against THIS player, I really wanted to know.

Does that seem too weird to you?

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[ErrantNight]

Well I'm not going to lie and say that I agree with the check... and I don't think you presented this hand in a terribly constructive manner... but both are beside the point.

If you felt you had a rock-solid read on this player, and that seeing his hand here would help verify that read, and having that knowledge was more important than playing this hand for maximum value, then I have no problem with your play.

Regardless I don't think it's too weird, just peculiar.

Ciao

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Subfallen,

That is hilarious. lol. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Actually, I was going to say it was the 4th person, but then I remembered that you were from somewhere named Blue and would not understand.

The next time the Babe (3rd person) has a question about anything in the English language, she is coming to you for clarification.

[Turning Stone Pro]

If you were in a hand with more than one player, the poster could arguably say "white guy" and "black guy" if she was interested in trying to differentiate between the two (certainly, there could have been other, more appropriate, ways to do it, like UTG, MP, LAG, TAG, player1/player2, solid, tricky, loose, passive, etc).

However, since she is only describing one opponent, she could have said "guy" or "player" without any reference to color, race, gender, etc.

I find the reference to "black" guy in the original post to be offensive since it was totally unnecessary, and I hate the republican-esqe way an attempt was made to legitimize said reference.

TSP

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that I see some humor in these remaks apparently eludes you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't - they are quite the thing that makes this thread great (other than you not agreeing that you should bet the river).

Especially amazing is you not knowing betwixt 2nd and 3rd person and then using "heuristic" in a sentence.

All sorts of comedy genius in this thread - especially when "the black guy" in question joins the discussion.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Turning Stone Pro]

How 'bout just solid player and loose player?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Sorry you take offense to the term Black guy. It was not meant to be offensive.

[limitholdemshark]

boy i wish i wasnt sitting in atlantic city playing at the "taj".oh,i wish i was playing in ur game.listen i know ur opp.dosnt have AA i also know the only hand he can have that can beat me is pocket jj and he cant have that hand because if he is anykind of ploayer he would of check raised me on the flop with his overpair so bet out on the river for value there are so many hands he could have that he would call ur river bet.even as weak as AQ,

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
How 'bout just solid player and loose player?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about a solid player and a loose pair of shoes?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry you take offense to the term Black guy. It was not meant to be offensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't note the race of the local loaded lady. Why?

I admit to being amused at how you capitalize the B in Black guy. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[etizzle]

more importantly HOW CAN SHE IGNORE THE MATH OF THE RIVER PLAY

[andyfox]

I love Robyn. One of my favorite people.

But she was wrong to identify one of her opponents as a Black guy. Unless she was saying that his being black was relevant to the play of the hand. Which she says she was not.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
more importantly HOW CAN SHE IGNORE THE MATH OF THE RIVER PLAY

[/ QUOTE ]

The same way she ignored El D's last post.

It's a Vegas local thing. They don't play for the same reasons most of us play. It's not for fun, or money even. It's on some level a way to prove they are superior to others, or to prove to themselves that they are smart. That's why so many are cranky all the time, especially when others are having fun and not playing "right". If those players aren't playing right, they can't see how *smart* the local is. So the local then needs to *explain* to those players how smart they are. You can see a glimpse of it in the tone of Babe's posts in this thread.

Another byproduct of having to prove to yourself and others how smart you are is to check behind because it's vitally important to see that one's narrow read was correct. Even more important than the sacrificed EV.

You have to have played out here to get it.

But the Babe's play worked for her, so that's fine with me. I don't know why everyone's so worried about it if she's ok with it. Let it go. The Babe's good people and her style works for her.

[andyfox]

"Let it go. The Babe's good people and her style works for her."

That's what I was trying to say, with less success.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
But she was wrong to identify one of her opponents as a Black guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, I think you're being too harsh on her. I thought she was just trying to be nice and didn't want to say directly that he wasn't very smart.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
t's a Vegas local thing. They don't play for the same reasons most of us play. It's not for fun, or money even. It's on some level a way to prove they are superior to others, or to prove to themselves that they are smart. That's why so many are cranky all the time, especially when others are having fun and not playing "right". If those players aren't playing right, they can't see how *smart* the local is. So the local then needs to *explain* to those players how smart they are. You can see a glimpse of it in the tone of Babe's posts in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only played in vegas a few times, but I have seen enough to know that this post could not be more correct.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
t's a Vegas local thing. They don't play for the same reasons most of us play. It's not for fun, or money even. It's on some level a way to prove they are superior to others, or to prove to themselves that they are smart. That's why so many are cranky all the time, especially when others are having fun and not playing "right". If those players aren't playing right, they can't see how *smart* the local is. So the local then needs to *explain* to those players how smart they are. You can see a glimpse of it in the tone of Babe's posts in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only played in vegas a few times, but I have seen enough to know that this post could not be more correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats what so fun about taking their cash.

[Big_Jim]

nh

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But she was wrong to identify one of her opponents as a Black guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, I think you're being too harsh on her. I thought she was just trying to be nice and didn't want to say directly that he wasn't very smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, so wrong...

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me reiterate that last point. If there is any benefit from seeing his hand, then betting is clearly the correct move. Does that make sense, PB?

[/ QUOTE ]

A bet pretty much guarantees that she *doesn't* get to see his hand. Either he calls and most likely mucks without showing, or he checkraises and Babe mucks. I think the point people are missing is that Babe wanted to find out if she was right in ruling out hands other than QQ/JJ. And I also think she knows she's costing herself value on this one hand in order to gain this information.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me reiterate that last point. If there is any benefit from seeing his hand, then betting is clearly the correct move. Does that make sense, PB?

[/ QUOTE ]

A bet pretty much guarantees that she *doesn't* get to see his hand. Either he calls and most likely mucks without showing, or he checkraises and Babe mucks. I think the point people are missing is that Babe wanted to find out if she was right in ruling out hands other than QQ/JJ. And I also think she knows she's costing herself value on this one hand in order to gain this information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think so. I think she is just trying to justify her weak tightness by claiming she wanted to see what he had. Its just like when people make overly lag moves and then justify it with "image purposes"

[rtrombone]

[ QUOTE ]
LBPLS

And this would be "look bad play loose and stupid"? LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to get your mind out of the gutter. I think he means Look Bad Play Like [censored].

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
They don't play for the same reasons most of us play. It's not for fun, or money even. It's on some level a way to prove they are superior to others, or to prove to themselves that they are smart. That's why so many are cranky all the time, especially when others are having fun and not playing "right".

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like this could apply to a lot of the people who responded to Babe's post, too.