blind steal vs a LAG

Hi, this is my first post; I hope it can start some interesting discussion. What line should I take vs. a mega LAG here? I think I underplayed this.

His stats were: 56/15/2.5. He 3-bet preflop very liberally, and often 3-bet the river with busted draws. Often raised and check-raised with nothing.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (8.00 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.50 BB.

[ep510]

Just call his 3-bet and see where the flop takes you. I see this type of play too often against maniacs. STOP trying to use muscle against muscle against them when you have nothing. They're not going to relent no matter how many chips you put in. So, wait till you have a decent hand, and then start raising/reraising.

[Nick C]

Since your hand has limited showdown value unimproved, I wonder if you'd be better off just calling the preflop 3-bet, with the idea of springing back into action on the flop if you catch something.

Anyway, I think the flop fold is okay. Although you may have the best hand, the flop missed you pretty badly, and you'll have better opportunities to call down and play back at the maniac.

[newhizzle]

i probly just call the 3-bet, although it is very possible that you have the best hand, theres not really much you can do on this flop, your not going to be able to outplay him because he will rarely fold, i dont mind folding here, i may peel one, but our pair outs are real thin and our hand has very little showdown value, i think a fold is probably the best play

[Harv72b]

Here's the problem when you're up against a maniac: you will never know what he's holding. Unless you end up with the nuts, or close to it, you just can't be sure that you're holding the best hand no matter what happens. And he's unlikely to let off the gas at any point in the hand, whether he's holding a straight flush or 3 high.

Against a player like that, I want to be holding hole cards that have some unimproved showdown value--things like pocket pairs, ace high, maybe a good king. QJs, while a very good hand, does not have a great deal of showdown value unless you hit something. Even against a maniac, who might be in the pot preflop with a vastly inferior hand, but who you can never be sure didn't pair (or better) the board.

Because of that, I don't want to go to war with Q high, no matter how strong a Q it is. So when he does you the favor of just completing first in from the SB, go ahead and check behind. You are not going to get him to fold preflop by raising, nor are you going to get him to not play back at you whatever the flop brings.

When the flop brings 7A5 with no cards in your suit, just fold to his lead bet.

A maniac is going to win lots of small pots when nobody else catches the board--that's what he counts on. You beat a maniac by punishing his aggressive behavior when the board does hit you hard--let him have all the small pots he wants, while you collect a few big ones from him.

In summary: check your option preflop, fold to the flop bet.

Thanks for the responses. I capped pf because I felt I had an equity edge against his likely range. In hindsight, the cap may have been overzealous, because as you guys said Q-high has very little showdown value.

Would raising this sort of player pf with A-high, Ksuit, K6o+ and 55+ be reasonable?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the problem when you're up against a maniac: you will never know what he's holding. Unless you end up with the nuts, or close to it, you just can't be sure that you're holding the best hand no matter what happens. And he's unlikely to let off the gas at any point in the hand, whether he's holding a straight flush or 3 high.

Against a player like that, I want to be holding hole cards that have some unimproved showdown value--things like pocket pairs, ace high, maybe a good king. QJs, while a very good hand, does not have a great deal of showdown value unless you hit something. Even against a maniac, who might be in the pot preflop with a vastly inferior hand, but who you can never be sure didn't pair (or better) the board.

Because of that, I don't want to go to war with Q high, no matter how strong a Q it is. So when he does you the favor of just completing first in from the SB, go ahead and check behind. You are not going to get him to fold preflop by raising, nor are you going to get him to not play back at you whatever the flop brings.

When the flop brings 7A5 with no cards in your suit, just fold to his lead bet.

A maniac is going to win lots of small pots when nobody else catches the board--that's what he counts on. You beat a maniac by punishing his aggressive behavior when the board does hit you hard--let him have all the small pots he wants, while you collect a few big ones from him.

In summary: check your option preflop, fold to the flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Harv, this is a great post.

[RatFink]

I also tend to raise an eyebrow on a LAG that limps in this situation. They are always playing bass-ackwards.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the responses. I capped pf because I felt I had an equity edge against his likely range

[/ QUOTE ]


while this might be true, against a LAG like this, you want to take a flop and exploit him when you have an even bigger edge on him. I'd call down with a 2nd pair hand.

Playing with LAGs can be profitable, but you just need to know when to exploit them to your advantage. Just treat them in a NL manner in that you push big edges hard against them