Implied odds?

[rigoletto]

5/10 online

table is kind of tight. Unknown UTG openraises all fold to me in the BB with A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Flop: Q 5 T, 5 is a spade.

Check, bet, call

turn: K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

check, bet, raise, reraise, cap, call

river: K

check, bet , call

[Zag]

I would have lost 1 more bet to his quad kings, because I would have bet out my straight on the river, having put him on AK. So you lost the minimum, I think.

Right?

[Homer]

Check-fold on the flop. Other than that, the rest of the hand was played well. Looks like your opponent filled up on the river or you chopped with another AJ.

-- Homer

[rigoletto]

You're probably right Homer. The reason I posted was to get a discussion going about implied odds in heads up situations.

I'm getting 1:6 on my flop call and I need about 1:10 if I only count the K's and runner runner flush as outs and probably more considerign a possible redraw to a boat. If he has a set he's likely to at least call my checkraise on the turn and call the river: this is 3 more BB for me making the descission closer but probably still -EV.

But what if we are dealing with someone capable of raising UTG with a large variety of hands (in a tight game): 77-99, ATs, KQo, AJo etc. In this situation i might have 7-10 outs and the possibility of taking the pot with a turn bet?

[Ginogino]

Rigoletto:
It seems to me that an important part of the implied odds equation is that you are able to get away from a hand that doesn't improve right away. If there's a significant chance that you will put in extra bets and lose, then you have to factor in the cost (negative EV) of your extra bets along with the extra profit (positive EV) your hand will produce if it wins.

So from your perspective on the flop, you have 4 outs to hit a K on the turn. You also have, say, 2 outs to hit the runner-runner in spades. I'd have considered implied odds as a factor in thinking about a King as an out (though you'd have to wonder a little whether your opponent holds a King for his UTG open-raise pre-flop, which would cut down on the chances of catching one on the turn). The runner-runner spade outs have a drawback, though. If an otherwise insignificant spade hits on the turn, you're likely going to have to put more money in the pot in order to see whether a spade (or a King) comes on the river, with a fairly good chance that your turn bet will be lost.

The flop is clearly the ONLY time that you're going to get away from the hand. I don't know if I'd fold in the heat of battle. The tighter your opponent, the better an idea folding might be, though.

Gino