Overpair early on

[suited_ace]

NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny: Level:1 Blinds(10/15)
Table Table 0 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: suited_ace ( $800 )
Seat 10: dlynch88 ( $800 )
Seat 1: OneTimeLukky ( $800 )
Seat 5: THESTEELRFAN ( $800 )
Seat 3: mutzi111 ( $800 )
Seat 7: Obi_Wan1 ( $800 )
Seat 2: Rockgut ( $800 )
Seat 6: biljen27 ( $800 )
Seat 9: netminder01 ( $800 )
Seat 8: grcraker ( $800 )
Trny:16124239 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to suited_ace [ Tc Ts ]
dlynch88 folds.
OneTimeLukky calls [15].
Rockgut calls [15].
mutzi111 folds.
suited_ace calls [15].
THESTEELRFAN folds.
biljen27 folds.
Obi_Wan1 folds.
grcraker calls [5].
netminder01 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 2h, 6s ]
grcraker checks.
netminder01 bets [75].
OneTimeLukky folds.
Rockgut raises [150].
suited_ace is all-In [785]

Is this too aggressive or just standard at the $22s?

I think if you raise preflop, you wouldnt have been in such a tough spot. I think you get rid of the blinds, and if you dont, then i dont think that you need to worry as much about the str8 draw. but, because you limped, you really have no idea what anyone has. I would fold because the sng just started and no reason to put your money in with no idea where you stand.

[ChuckNorris]

Looks standard to me. I'd play it the same way in a $50+5.

[lorinda]

I think it's too aggressive, but then you knew I would.

Lori

[suited_ace]

Nah, I'm actually interested in your point. Why do you think it's too aggressive and how would you have played it?

I think your gonna be drawing dead some of the time to 2 pair and set. Up agaisnt a straight/flush draw (maybe with overcard(s)) some of the time (which I dont even know if I want). Dominate something like smaller (none-set) pocket pair a little of the time.

The bottom line is that you gotta make a blind guess and its still so early. Why not fold this and outplay your opponents as the blinds go up?

Hope someone flames me so I can find leaks =) Brian

[SuitedSixes]

Too aggressive. Call.

[pokerlaw]

like others have said, it is too aggressive for me at least. However, hands like this are why i play pokerstars...since if i mess up, i get another chance to win /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Seadood228]

Generally if I play TT passively preflop, it's not going to take much for me to dump it after the flop if I don't spike a set, even if I happen to flop an overpair. I think that's your best line here, especially with such poor r/implieds..

You aren't in for much, pick a better spot.

I would have raised pre-flop. Calling the blinds??!? Would have called too but only to a raise. Here is a worthy raise. When the flop comes this, open up with a bet.

[the_joker]

I'd fold. Maybe not with only a bet, but an easy fold with a bet and a raise.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Too aggressive. Call.

[/ QUOTE ]

say the action goes: you call, other guy calls. turn is a brick (say, offsuit 8, one of the few cards that's a true brick), and it goes check, moderate bet to you.

then what?

i would push and hope/expect to get paid off by 6x, 77-99.

also, i'd raise pre-flop.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your gonna be drawing dead some of the time to 2 pair

[/ QUOTE ]

pokenum -h ts tc - 6c 4d -- 2s 4h 6s
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6s 2s 4h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ts Tc 288 29.09 687 69.39 15 1.52 0.298
6c 4d 687 69.39 288 29.09 15 1.52 0.702

not exactly drawing dead. for reference:

pokenum -h 7d 5d - as ah -- 2s 4h 6s
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6s 2s 4h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7d 5d 321 32.42 669 67.58 0 0.00 0.324
As Ah 669 67.58 321 32.42 0 0.00 0.676

usually we don't call an oesd against an overpair "drawing dead." (the backdoor flushes help).

[bigt439]

Just to add my opinion in here. You're in a marginal situation, meaning that the play with the highest EV shouldn't be that much better than the play with the second highest EV. This is my opinion, and is not a fact, but I think this pretty well describes what's going on here.

If I was playing this there's obviously the whole it depends factor depending on who is doing this, but my default for two unknowns would be to push over top. Given how pf went and the ghetto minraise doesn't tell you much I think it's +EV to push here. I don't think you give up a tremendous amount by folding, but I do think it's the second best play.

Calling is absolutely the worst play. After this guy's raise there's almost no way he doesn't keep betting on the turn and there are 32879292 scared cards on the turn where you'll have no idea where you are and probably convince yourself to fold. If you're going to play the hand you have to push because your hand is vulnerable. Like curtains says, don't give yourself opportunities to fold later on in the hand. The only reason to call would be to keep a worse hand betting into you, but on this board with your hand, that's ridiculous. Push or fold, but please do not call.

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised pre-flop. Calling the blinds??!? Would have called too but only to a raise. Here is a worthy raise. When the flop comes this, open up with a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


Exactly. Raising pre-flop gives you the image of having more strength than you really do when you come out betting after this flop. Betting pre-flop would certainly knock out a player or two, and may get you a check after that flop. Then you can bet for the pot, assuming you don't think he's trapping (which is unlikely, given your raise preflop and the cards out on the flop).

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
having more strength that you really do

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly why raising with TT in MP with two limpers in Level 1 of a $22 is incorrect.

Outside of flopping a set, hero got exactly what he wanted. Pushing all-in is not going to make a set or two pair go away. Calling is not going to hurt you.

This is a 4th or 5th street hand. You are not going to pick it up or win it on the flop.

[raptor517]

in a 22, a limp is fine pf imo. facing a bet and a min raise? i sure as hell dont shove. im folding this prolly 90% of the time here. id raise pf in a 109 or 215 tho. holla

Thank god someone finally backed me up on the fold...

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank god someone finally backed me up on the fold...

[/ QUOTE ]

buncha people backed that up. they are the ones that play well. holla

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thank god someone finally backed me up on the fold...

[/ QUOTE ]

buncha people backed that up. they are the ones that play well. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think folding's crazy, but what exactly do you seem having? the raiser usually raises JJ+ pre, and usually doesn't play 35. the BB has a wider range, but you're only adding in misc. 2-pair hands, and then they both could have a set. playing against flush draw + 1/2 overs is bad, but there's a little dead money, so not horrible.

one obvious problem is by pushing you let A4 fold but get called all day by 66. i dunno, it just seems like given the action so far, i'd expect to be ahead something like 85% of the time right now.

edit: and try to answer from the perspective of someone who is playing a normal number of tables and whose time is not uber-scarce.

To me, my logic is probably different from raptor's, but i fold this because its so darn early in the sng to put so much at risk on a marginal hand... Also, because you didnt raise preflop, there could be any range of hands you could be up against. You have 15 invested in this pot, so the return just doesnt justify the risk. You can push here with the best hand and very easily walk away a loser. While i may believe i am currently ahead, i just dont want to risk all my chips this early on 10 10. I believe there will be a better opportunity later in the tourney where i will be able to get my chips in. but thats just me.

[lastsamurai]

Thats the danger of limping in with medium PP on this flop
4s, 2h, 6s

UTG + 2 could of limped in with 66 44 or 22 AK/images/graemlins/spade.gif or even 53 off or 57 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. My guess is that the reason why you are posting this in the first place is you got cracked with trips or got sucked out on the river.

[Ixnert]

[ QUOTE ]
You have 15 invested in this pot, so the return just doesnt justify the risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disabuse yourself of the notion that what you already have invested in the pot matters in terms of what action you should take now.

The chips are in your stack, or in the pot. There's no "those chips in the pot are mine".

As to the original hand, I originally misread the flop action as hero betting and getting raised, and thought the suggestions to fold were painfully weak. Now that my reading comprehension has actually caught up, yeah, easy fold at this stage.

let me qualify my statement with I am new to poker, enjoy the forum, and play some devil's advocate to see how my thinking holds up...

I agree how much you have invested shouldnt be a factor in your decision to check, call, fold or push, but i do think it is a good common sense indicator. I am speaking about this hand and not generalizing that it is a sound strategy. I see this type of move quite a bit, so i know there are others that are making overly strong moves with very marginal hands. While, again, i agree to an advanced player this is not the logic to use, for players that make this move, i think it is. and, one place i think this forum often goes wrong is people need to understand the play of the question poster because that will show you his/her level of understanding. Case in point...

You wrote, you misread it originally that its an easy fold...as i was the first to post i would fold. but, i offered an explanation into why...and it was simple, something he could take away immediately. I think anyone that is in this position, with a marginal hand, that wants to make a move during the first orbit of a sng is crazy. considering the weak play at 22s, be patient, dont be one of the crazies! Save your stack for when a crazy decides to make this move on you...

[jedinite]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree how much you have invested shouldnt be a factor in your decision to check, call, fold or push, but i do think it is a good common sense indicator.

[/ QUOTE ] Likewise just some advice: How much you have invested should always be irrelevant. Its just money in the pot, regardless if you put it there or someone else did. Make all your decisions on how much is in the pot, not who put it there. Dead money is dead money.

I agree money in the pot should not be considered!

But, post something constructive, dont just echo what others have stated is LAW and cannot be disputed.

My statement of having just 15 invested is getting blown out of proportion. The reason I said it is somehow, the original poster thought about this hand and decided to push. So, telling him its an easy fold is not constructive. Give him reasons. Now, i dont want to come off as giving people the wrong reason to make the right decision, but I attempt to give a reason. Stay on topic and give better advice, dont fixate on a side remark i made. I was just stating that this hand should not be hard to lay down considering it has cost you next to nothing to play it...its a psychological barrier many people seem to have. by stating that, maybe he would have laid it down and saw the hand from a different perspective. but, he didnt just get married to the hand that he wouldnt protect preflop, he friggen knocked it up.