Question for Malmuth/Sklansky regarding high rake at LH

[gdaily]

Hi,

In Sweden, finally there has opened a few casinos that spread poker. Two limit games are spread, roughly 12.50-25 and 25-50.

The rake is 5% - with a cap of 25$ ! No tipping is allowed.

Mostly ninehanded (10 seats), very weak game... seldom more than one raise before flop, usually one bet on the flop, turn and river. When players raise a bet, they "usually" have a very good hand, so it is quite easy to get a good read.

Often there are like 6-8 callers before flop (with no raise, like 4 with a raise), 3 on flop and you usually get a call on the river.

Provided you know all the moves in HPFAP, you are by far the best player in the fiels, you never go on tilt and so on... are the game beatable? If so, with how much/hour?

How to adjust starting requirements?

Best regards
Ola


Provide

[Andy B]

I never had much success at low-limit hold'em, but I used to beat a stud game with a 10% rake whose cap was larger than the big bet, and I still beat a stud/8 game whose rake is larger than the small bet, both for over 1BB/hr. As long as the players are bad, and you're reasonably good, the game should be plenty beatable.

[Anadrol 50]

That's low limit ? The game is beatable.

[Andy B]

No, $12.50/25 wouldn't be considered low-limit, but the high rake and loose players would make it play like a low-limit game. I cite my local $2/4 stud and $4/8 stud/8 games to point out that an unreasonable rake does not, in and of itself, make a game unbeatable.

[Anadrol 50]

I hear ya.

[Ray Zee]

if the blinds are low then it may be okay, but why not play online instead. that rake will leave the game without any money after a short time anyway. you may be able to win some, but if you are wrong then you will lose so much faster. its tough enough to beat a normal raked geme but a game where the rake is 5 times that, is stupid to give the house any action.

[Ralle]

In the other two casinos here that spread poker, Gothenburg and Malmo, they also have the 5% $25 max rake. I've been playing mostly in their $5/10 games (40/80 kr), and at that even higher rake, the games are still usually beatable. Much easier than online.

[Ralle]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Mostly ninehanded (10 seats), very weak game... seldom more than one raise before flop, usually one bet on the flop, turn and river. When players raise a bet, they "usually" have a very good hand, so it is quite easy to get a good read.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree with your description, from my experience anyway. Of course you have the occasional maniac, raising with random holdings, sometimes a rock or two, and maybe even a few solid players at the table. But most players appear to be passive, and a little bit on the loose side. But I'm not sure that starting to play aggressively would be correct here. You will usually have a bunch of callers no matter how much you raise. So if you usually play solid, maybe it's a good idea to be less aggressive and instead loosen up bit. Just my thoughts. What I do know is that it's often hard in these games to win with top pair top kicker, or even two pair. Time after time I'm shown strange straights and baby trips. After a while that can become pretty annoying. On the other hand, it might be enough to win two or three pots to make you a winner for the night. You just need to get a little lucky and have your good hands hold up.

[rigoletto]

Casino poker is not very big in Scandinavia and I suspect that most players are turists and visiting buisness people. Given this widespread player base, even if the rake takes a lot of money of the table, it doesn't have to kill the game.

[Timer]

The house is playing you for a sucker. The house is simply robbing the game. The house will end up with all the money and it won't be long before you are looking at only excellent players. Then what? Complain, complain, complain. A $25 rake is ridiculous for any game.

[Anadrol 50]

gdaily...check your private messages

[gdaily]

Hi,

yes of course you are right all that the rake is ridicilous high. So why is it - actually its the highest in the world!...

Well, since poker is kind of illigal in Sweden, exept at the 4 casinos owned by the govorment, we dont have much chiose, do we? Yes we do - however people dont think... There are a few underground clubs, but the casino is draining the poker community with the huge rake - the producers in this game are "immigrants" that are not allowed in on the "swedish" clubs - and we are not allowed in their clobs... or we dont dare to go. So the casino is the only place to meet :-)

I think the potlimit games (Omaha, Holdem and 7stud (yes, potlimit 7 stud are rarely spread) is the only games at the casino that are beatable. This is interesting, since Mason Malmuth is strongly agains NL/PL, since they kill the producers... here the casino kills the procusers/games even quicker, so if we want to win *some* money we have to play potlimit.

/Ola

[Ralle]

I'm not sure the rake is that extremely high. What happens in practice is that the rake is never capped at the lower limits, so it's a straight 5% of the pot size. Compare this with e.g. a typical $2/$4 internet game with a max rake of $3. The rake in that game is capped when the pot is $60 which almost never happens, which means the rake is a straight 5% in that game too. Also in many other casinos the low limit games have a 10% rake up to a smaller maximum. But still, this 10% would in many cases be a much higer rake than the 5% $25 max.

The Aviation Club in Paris takes a time charge of 20 euros per hour in the 2/5 PL games. That seems a lot steeper.

I just don't think the rake is as bad as it seems, especially not when the low limit (40/80 kr) games are so easily beatable.

[Lunamondo]

"Compare this with e.g. a typical $2/$4 internet game with a max rake of $3. The rake in that game is capped when the pot is $60 which almost never happens, which means the rake is a straight 5% in that game too."

I rarely play $2-$4 online with a straight 5% rake (a monster), as it would be hard to beat even the rake.

***

And what comes to easy games, at holdem the games doesn't get any better after some point; but actually get worse. When the games are not too loose the top pairs (and ace high etc.) become a major source of profit, while start heavily losing value when the game gets looser; then AK gets closer to J6s.