Party 55 level 1 QQ

NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee
Level:1 Blinds(10/15)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: skipjack12 ( $1030 )
Seat 8: Geez82 ( $895 )
Seat 9: errol619111 ( $975 )
Seat 10: leepoplar9 ( $775 )
Seat 6: jlcurlee21 ( $825 )
Seat 3: HERO ( $840 )
Seat 7: DrewWoods ( $1210 )
Seat 5: bajou ( $1040 )
Seat 2: bansheeair1 ( $1365 )
Seat 1: VelvetX ( $1045 )
Trny:16109906 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qs Qd ]
bansheeair1 folds.
HERO calls [15].
skipjack12 folds.
bajou folds.
jlcurlee21 calls [15].
DrewWoods raises [70].
Geez82 folds.
errol619111 folds.
leepoplar9 folds.
VelvetX calls [55].
HERO raises [210].
jlcurlee21 folds.
DrewWoods is all-In [1140]
VelvetX folds.
HERO???

Oh yeah, getting used to 6 tabling, no reads as usual.

[nyc999]

If I had no reads, I would never limp QQ in EP. And I would call the push.

[MegaBet]

Identical thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3504557&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post3510896

[jedinite]

I'm also curious on the limping QQ here.

Edit: and also curious on the raise to 210. You've got T170 in the pot and two players already in for T70. It looks like you're trying to build a multi-way pot with QQ here? Were they soooted queens? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'm not too eager to call all-in for all my chips in the first few hands with QQ either, with negligable dead money in the pot. This smells a lot like someone overplaying AK here.

The way you've played it we've got very little information so I'm probably going to fold.

If you'd opened for 50 and he raised to 150 how would you have played it if you still had the call behind the raiser? How about if it was folded back to you from the raise?

[billyjex]

if you put him on AK it is horrible to fold here. ~300 is not neglible dead money, and QQ is a favorite. That said, I think limping here sucks.

[jedinite]

[ QUOTE ]
~300 is not neglible dead money

[/ QUOTE ]
That is true. I was mistakenly looking at the 140 that others had put in the pot and ignoring the 225 we'd thrown in ourselves, which is certainly dead now...

With the hero's remaining stack size of 615 (something else I neglected) i'd probably call now, considering i'm most likely 57%-43% on a 2.6-1 payoff (risking my remaining 615 to win 1595).

We could possibly be up against KK but I think that's balanced by the times we're up against JJ or AQ. I don't see AA playing this way, unless he's sophisticated and playing a move ahead (that we would discredit his push here as taking him off AA and thus call with a smaller pair).

I still hate it, though, unless this is part of an "intentionally coinflip early to maximize $/hr" strategy. We've ended up risking all our chips on a hand where we're likely either way behind or coinflipping and its Level 1.

I agree limping here sucks. I hate saying never so I will say I limp less than 1% of the time here. I don't remember why I limped but my best guess is that I came back from taking a leak and had only a couple of seconds to act. I think this lead to me geting pot committed and now have to call for all my chips level 1 with QQ (looks like I agree with nyc999 on everything), blech. Maybe this just goes to show how bad limping is.

jednite:
What's wrong with the raise to 210? Would you prefer calling or raising more? I'm also curious as to why you say the way I played it we have very little information. As far as the "intentionally coinflip early to maximize $/hr" strategy - I've never been a believer in that for what it's worth.

I was wondering what range people put villain on here. AA, KK, JJ, AK, AQ and that's about it, is that the consensus?

[schwza]

you're calling 615 to win something like 1750. if his range is AA/KK/AK, it's an easy call. a good player probably wouldn't push AK there, but many will, and enough will push JJ, AQ, etc that i think you have to call.

[jedinite]

I can agree with limping rarely if you're highly confident someone's going to raise behind you allowing you to get in a big re-raise preflop. But considering we're at level one, unless you've got past-performance reads on the players I'm going to raise this every time unless as you said its a misclick/etc.

I say you don't have as much information as you could in this scenario because you open limped and got a standard raise and then call from the BB behind. If you'd opened for a standard 45-60 raise here and were popped to 150+ by DrewWoods you could narrow his holding a lot more (at the point that you raise to 210). You'd also have an idea of what's going on with the big blind (if he cold-calls the re-raise from Drew or more likely folds). You have some information, but you don't have as much as if you'd have raised in early position - with his standard raise, Drew could be holdling a lot here (but once he pushes you've got a lot more info, of course) and likewise for the big blind when he's called the T55 at the point that you re-raise.

Personally I don't like the raise to 210 in a pot of T170 with two players in, i'm suggesting more.

My reasoning is that you've got one player representing strength with a standard raise (DrewWoods with a standard 3xBB +2BB for the two limpers) and you get a call from the big blind representing a speculative hand but not significant strength to raise over the top with you to still act behind. So there's T170 and two players in the pot when it comes back to you. You pop it to 210 - lets say DrewWoods just calls: now there's 590 in the pot and you're offering the BB 3-1 to call so you're going to see a three-way pot and you're OOP to the original raiser.

You've got 825 behind at this point, if you're planning on calling a push behind I'd go ahead and put half my chips in (400-425) which demonstrates that you're serious but can still get called by a donk here. 425 offers 2.4-1 to the BB and hopefully you won't get that second call from as wide a range.

I'll also mix it up here occasionally with an overbet push, which can result in getting called by a lot smaller range who sees it as a donk move.

Without any other information (Prophecy stats, previous hands, previous games) as an ABC read I'd put Drew on JJ-KK, AQ-AK. Very rarely TT, AA, and AJ as well, but those are all pretty unusual plays for those holdings (unless he's being tricky with AA as previously noted).

[freemoney]

much, much different hands.

[curtains]

Too large a % of your stack is already in the pot, you cannot fold here, they will not have AA-KK enough for you to get away from this hand.

[jedinite]

610 to win 1830 if i'm not mistaken (i was mistaken above). Something close to that.

A pretty clear call at that point, i agree, against that range.

Re. information - I meant after the reraise, guy raises to 70 then upon being reraised to 210 he reraises allin. That's some good info no?

I'm gonna give some thought to your suggestion of raising to 425 but at the moment something just feels wrong about that to me.

I agree.

Any thoughts on my raise to 210?

[jedinite]

[ QUOTE ]
Re. information - I meant after the reraise, guy raises to 70 then upon being reraised to 210 he reraises allin. That's some good info no?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, we should have a pretty good feel for his hand here. I was speaking mostly about when you put in the raise to 210. A weak player might think he could bluff you here (thinking that you're showing weakness with a smaller raise) but at the $55 i'm going to give him credit that he knows you're going to call his push here getting 3-1. But maybe I'm giving the $55 too much credit.

I also think it cost you T210 to figure out what you could have found out for T60-70 if you'd raised from early position and then he'd popped it to 200 or so behind you....

[/ QUOTE ]
I also think it cost you T210 to figure out what you could have found out for T60-70 if you'd raised from early position and then he'd popped it to 200 or so behind you....

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. That's exactly why I almost never limp here on purpose.

[adanthar]

Your reraise means you are gonna see a flop, which sucks. If you're going to go for this play just push to the raise, there's 150 chips in the pot already and JJ sometimes calls.

I would never limp/RR with no reads in an SNG, however.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
610 to win 1830 if i'm not mistaken (i was mistaken above). Something close to that.

A pretty clear call at that point, i agree, against that range.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll take your word for it.

slightly OT: i'd love it if it were standard for posters to post those releveant numbers so we didn't all have to do the arithmetic. or a converter that did that kind of stuff.

[Amid Cent]

I think this is a fold. Main reason is that he has seen you limp, then reraise. This means you probably are on a big PP (99-AA). Knowing this, he STILL reraised you all in, so I think you're looking at KK or AA. If he made a fancy play with AJ, AQ or AK, then give him credit, but I think most of the time, you're an underdog.

[RikaKazak]

quick comment,
limping is fine, anyone that played the old NL 200 back when 3 tables of it, knows why.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]

Too large a % of your stack is already in the pot, you cannot fold here, they will not have AA-KK enough for you to get away from this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I basically never limp QQ there...but of course its not terrible

umm..I would probably just open allin after the raise+the caller. But what you did is fine too, Im not really sure.

Id want to make a bet that doesnt give your opponents the right odds to suck out on you, but also might encourage them to play weak hands that you dominate. I suspect that allin would be sufficient to acheive that result, but maybe some raise to like 250 is good too. 210 seems a touch on the small side to me.

Thanks for the responsese everyone. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The main reason I posted this hand because I often see comments in other threads like "well he probably has AA or KK, maybe AK or QQ, JJ based on his reraise ..." or "if he reraises you can fold with a clear concsience" and so on but often enough I see people make very strong plays with T9, A4s, etc.

Of course you will usually see a strong hand here but the villain will also have a much weaker hand than that more often than many of you might think. I've seen people push allin level 1 with stuff like A8, it happens and I think many on this forum don't realize how big the donk factor really is and automatically put people on a very strong hand every time they bet strong.

The fact is that there are many donks even at the 55 level and folding here would be a big mistake. I think it has been mentioned that you should never forget the misclick factor, well if we put that at less than 1% then the donk factor should be at least 10%.

As you probably figured by now villain didn't have AA or KK or anything even remotely close to a hand that strong.

He had 88.

Anyway I'm glad I posted this as I didn't realize before that my flop raise to 210 may not have been the best. Next time I would probably push.

[jedinite]

It seems at the $33 and $55 the donks I find fall in to the category "overagressive, especially against small bets", at least in my experience. This shows them a decent return against passive players, but its easy to combat once you've got them identified and can make appropriate blocking bets/etc.

This is classic behavior for such an animal: you "showed weakness" with your flop re-raise to 210, and he pushed thinking he could push you off your hand. You're right, i've seen this play with ace-high.