$33 - get cute on bubble with KK?

[schwza]

don't remember reads. check out the sweet level 4 bubble though.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1670)
Hero (BB) (t2795)
UTG (t1170)
CO (t2365)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. (only 1 blind)

<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t300</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t300, hero?

Push

[bigt439]

Fold.

Push, what else could you possibly do with those stack sizes?

[Hornacek]

[ QUOTE ]
Push

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[revots33]

I assume you're thinking about calling and trying to trap with KK? That's a very bad play in this spot I think. Just push. No need to overthink it.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.

Push, what else could you possibly do with those stack sizes?

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously the other option is to call. i thought that the first raiser would fold most hands hoping that the back guy would call and go broke (and the first raiser could have a wide range). but then the back guy would only call premium hands because he doesn't want to go broke when he's the 3rd stack.

i would have considered pushing 65s, so maybe that means KK is a call?

[Nicholasp27]

650 dead money in pot

push and claim that money

if they call, then you have good chance of breaking them and getting up to 4-5k itm/hu

if they call and win, you still are, at worst, tied with other shorty, at best shorty itm

[EnderFFX]

Im going to suggest something that is prolly going to be seen as horrible.

I say min raise, and try to get on of the stacks pot committed. Then push any flop. And yes, it will suck if an Ace hits, but I may be willing to take that chance to get into a very dominant position.

Odds are whoever calls a min raise, will call a push.
However, you are giving them the chance to make a mistake on the flop by folding when you push. Either way, push or min raise you will get the people all in or get the blinds. You may get that lucky chance that someone will call the min raise, and fold the flop to any aggression.

Push. You'll most likely get the original raiser to commit, and the original caller to fold. 3 in the pot, and there's a better chance of someone catching a better hand than you on the flop. One caller = you in a more dominant position to win the pot and knock one out.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
However, you are giving them the chance to make a mistake on the flop by folding when you push.

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when they flop an A and decide to fold? it's ~100000x more likely they're going to flop nothing, fold, and i'll wish all the money went in pre-flop.

i think the more reasonable argument for a min raise is that

[ QUOTE ]
Odds are whoever calls a min raise, will call a push.

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is not true. i'd be a little surprised to see the action go: utg makes it 300, button calls, i make it 500, both fold. i dunno, maybe it would. the min 3bet is not part of my bag of tricks.

[EnderFFX]

With the blinds so back, minraising should cause only one to say. I told you it was a wacky idea. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[illegit]

Any particular reason to get cute here? The raisor has already put in more than 1/4 his stack, the pot is plenty worth picking up as it stands already. Just push.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold.

Push, what else could you possibly do with those stack sizes?

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously the other option is to call. i thought that the first raiser would fold most hands hoping that the back guy would call and go broke (and the first raiser could have a wide range). but then the back guy would only call premium hands because he doesn't want to go broke when he's the 3rd stack.

i would have considered pushing 65s, so maybe that means KK is a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely understand what you're trying to get at, but you really should not want to take KK up against 2 opponents given that they don't have that much left behind and considering all the dead money in the pot. You don't only have to worry about being outflopped, but you have to worry about your opponents making weaker hands than yours with enough equity to correctly put all their chips in on the flop. For instance, if one of them flopped a flush draw it would be disastrous.

On top of all this, you may not even want a call from UTG. If he calls you with something like A5s its bad news for you. Given this there's no way I want to give him a free flop.

And there's the added bonus that the button may even call with something like 88 when the action gets back to him and you have him crushed. I could actually go on a bit more, but I really want some pizza pockets and I think you get the idea.

[schwza]

haha, well said.

i pushed, they folded, and i wondered "what if...."

thanks for all the replies.

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]
Im going to suggest something that is prolly going to be seen as horrible.

I say min raise, and try to get on of the stacks pot committed. Then push any flop. And yes, it will suck if an Ace hits, but I may be willing to take that chance to get into a very dominant position.

Odds are whoever calls a min raise, will call a push.
However, you are giving them the chance to make a mistake on the flop by folding when you push. Either way, push or min raise you will get the people all in or get the blinds. You may get that lucky chance that someone will call the min raise, and fold the flop to any aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this idea sometimes, although it will probably get regarded as horrible. With KK and a big stack on the bubble, I'm happy to get all my chips in against 1 opponent. My goal in this situation is to get as much money in the pot PF with a single caller. I really don't want them to both call. I'll sometimes push if I think I'll get called, but sometimes I think that min raising or raising an amount that leaves the original raiser 30% of his stack to be even more profitable. Even in the $33s it's amazing the number of people that don't understand concepts like being pot committed.

Anyway, I don't want to just call here because then you're left playing KK in a multi-way pot. I'll only push if I'm sure I'll get called. If I think I can get more money in the pot PF with a single caller by raising some other amount than all my chips, I'll do that.

Thoughts?

[Paragon]

I agree with you that people that call a min raise don't necessarily call a push. The same mistakes some players make not calling with pot odds that help us out every so often can actually hurt us in these situations... Just the other day some guy raised 1/3 of his stack and I thought for sure I could just push QQ and get an auto call. Nope, he somehow folded leaving himself crippled.

I also don't like the min raise at all. Why allow them to make a +EV decision? I would make a large, tempting raise of 800 or something. That's enough to protect your hand and make it -EV for anyone to call in the long run even if they flop better hands every so often. Even if it seems "obvious" to you that you must have a big pair, your opponents will still call with some bizarre hands I think. At the $55 level I see 44 call this sometimes and actually push against me on the flop if I check to him.